Breville BES870: Double single basket and 1 cup button?

[ASAP78]

Hi, I am new here and just bought the Breville BES870 two weeks ago. I have been trying to make good espresso with good crema and also get a good latte art. I have following questions and hope to get guidance.

1. I have been reading thread that recommend using single wall basket 2 cups and 1 cup button to achieve 30ml espresso. I tried it but the extraction is around 10 to 15 seconds but in good pressure range. At the end, I can only achieve 15ml worth of espresso. May I know am I doing it right? If I use single wall basket 2 cups, should I press 1 cup button or 2 cups button? What is the correct way?

2. May I know why I can only achieve 15ml and 15 seconds extraction where I should get around 30ml espresso and 25 seconds extraction? What did I do wrong? I am using fresh bean.

Thanks.

[scotchparty1]

Hey mate, I use this thing at work and to aim for the best possible extraction with the built-in grinder I use fresh beans, grind at around the '1' mark (finest) and generally jam quite a bit of grinds in the double basket (around 20g) with a strong tamping. Basically you want to get it near choke-point to slow it down, if you are only in the middle of the 'espresso range' on the dial then you aren't grinding fine/dosing enough.
I'm thinking about bringing my mazzer mini into the office as I imagine I'll get significantly better shots but for now this is doing the trick.
For latte art use a shallow mug and check out some youtube videos for guidance.

[ASAP78]

Hi, Thanks for the reply. I believe I may not tamp it hard enough and the pressure range is in the middle. I think I have to grind even finer like "1". So my next question is whether I use double cup single wall basket with 1 cup button is correct? Thanks

[scotchparty1]

Correct. Good luck!

[Javaphile]

No it's NOT correct! If you're using the double (2 shot) basket then you should be using the double shot (2 shot) button. You should end up with ~60ml in the cup extracted over ~25-30 seconds. If it takes longer than that time make your grind coarser. If you don't get the proper amount of espresso in your cup then reprogram the 2 shot button as detailed in your machines manual.

Once you're in the ballpark for extraction time and amount adjust the grind and volume to your personal tastes.


Java "RTM" phile

[scotchparty1]

No it's NOT correct! If you're using the double (2 shot) basket then you should be using the double shot (2 shot) button.

So everybody brewing espresso at 1:2 ratio is doing it wrong. OK

[Javaphile]

So everybody brewing espresso at 1:2 ratio is doing it wrong. OK

First off a 1:2 ratio of what?!? Nothing in any of the numbers given in this thread is at a 1:2 ratio. Your terms are undefined and as such are meaningless and do nothing but lead to confusion.

Secondly if you are trying to brew an espresso and only extracting 30ml from a double basket then yes, you are doing it wrong. When brewing an espresso from a double basket you should be extracting ~60ml. If you are only extracting 30ml then you are not making an espresso, you are making a ristretto. A ristretto is the first half of a normal espresso shot. As such traditionally it was the first ~15 seconds of a normal ~30 second pour. Thus you could make one with-out having to change the settings on your grinder. More recently it has become the in thing to extend the extraction time out to longer periods. Many feel this causes the shot to taste more bitter and hence stick with the 15 second extraction time when looking for a ristretto.

Thirdly if you are using a double basket with your shot buttons at factory defaults and you push the 1 cup/single shot button you will end up with 15ml in your cup, not 30ml. (Surprise, surprise. That is exactly what ASAP78 got when he did that.) Think about it. The 1 shot button is designed and set up for use with the shingle shot basket, from which it will extract 30ml when properly dialed in. If you use the double basket with the 1 shot button how are you going to get the same volume as you did when using the single shot basket? You now have twice the amount of coffee in the basket which means twice the amount of water retention in the grounds. Which means guess what. Yup, only 15ml ends up in the cup. Half of what it should be if you are looking for a ristretto. The only way to get 30ml in the cup using the double basket and 1 shot button would be to seriously coarsen up the grind so the water just blows through. Of course if you do that you will end up with a seriously under-extracted cup of coffee. It certainly wouldn't be an espresso or ristretto. Alternatively you could reprogram the button for a larger volume, but then it would no longer be usable for brewing an espresso with the single basket.

As with anything else that people are new to they need to first learn how to walk before trying to run. In the world of home espresso that means first learning how to make a correct espresso. They have to get to know their equipment and how to use it. In this case, i.e. when using the double basket, that means learning how to extract 60ml in 30 seconds. Once that has been mastered and they can pull a consistent shot then it's time to move on to changing the variables (One at a time or you'll end up chasing your tail.) to account and adjust to their personal tastes and equipment.

Definitions matter. If people don't have/aren't using a common definition then they're not communicating, they're just making noises at each other.


Java "Prefers his noises to communicate rather than confuse" phile

[scotchparty1]

First off a 1:2 ratio of what?!?

I thought we were discussing espresso? Coffee:Water.

Secondly if you are trying to brew an espresso and only extracting 30ml from a double basket then yes, you are doing it wrong.

Different strokes I guess?

Thirdly if you are using a double basket with your shot buttons at factory defaults and you push the 1 cup/single shot button you will end up with 15ml in your cup, not 30ml.

That's interesting because I manage to get more than that, about ~40g. I guess somebody may have played with the settings.

Definitions matter. If people don't have/aren't using a common definition then they're not communicating, they're just making noises at each other.

I guess that's the trouble. Not everybody has the same definition.

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

I thought we were discussing espresso? Coffee:Water.


.

The 1:2 ratio is typically described in terms of weight (as volume of extracted coffee is a bit of a noisy measure), and refers to ratio of ground coffee: brewed coffee. So 15g of ground coffee: 30g of brewed coffee for a standard espresso. Unlike water, 30g of brewed coffee does not equal 30mls (it will be closer to 60mls).

[scotchparty1]

Thanks Barry that's what I meant to write. Bit thrown off by the hostility here.

[Javaphile]

I see no hostility here. Just attempts to communicate clearly and concisely.


Java "Beam me up Scotty" phile

[ASAP78]

Thanks all for the help and explanation. Will take the idea and try a few more cups. Thanks