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Best machine under $1200

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  • #16
    Originally posted by jymorgan View Post
    Sorry, "ease of use" doesn't mean automatic.

    I understand that there will be a learning curve involved, i just thought some machines might be slightly more user friendly than others, which doesnt sound like it is the case.

    Would the Lelit Combi suit my/her requirements as it has an included grinder. I understand the disadvantage if/when wanting to upgrade in the future, given that any future upgrade will require a purchase of a new grinder.

    I'm assuming the combined model would save on counter space?

    Or, am i better off buying a separate grinder and espresso machine from the start, given that the machine will have to be cheaper to accommodate the grinder?
    Some machines definitely are easier to use when trying to achieve consistent results. Some single boilers without a PID may require "temperature surfing" to produce the best shot.
    Some HX machine may require a cooling flush.

    I don't have a HX machine, I have a PIDed single boiler. While I can get good results with it there is still some inconsistency, particularly when pulling multiple shots, some with milk and some without.
    One of the main reasons, I believe, is due to the relatively small boiler (250ml) which would be very similar to the one in the Lelits (somebody please correct me if I am wrong).
    I would argue that any new HX is likely to be more consistent, and they all have a much larger boiler.

    I should probably add that my inconsistent results are only really noticeable when drinking espresso. With any milk based drinks the inconsistencies are pretty well masked.
    If you drink mainly milk based drinks a HX or double boiler will make your life easier than any single boiler.

    The Lelit Combi will definitely have a smaller footprint than separate machine and grinder, and if this is critical, is just about your only option.

    I haven't used one but a NS Oscar 1 may be in your price range and many people seem happy with it.
    Although you want to buy new, there is really not much risk in purchasing a second hand grinder, particularly if you do so through this forum and can inspect/test it before purchase.
    Apart from possibly requiring new burrs not too much is likely to go wrong.
    Last edited by saeco_user; 19 August 2016, 11:53 AM. Reason: added extra info

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    • #17
      Originally posted by jymorgan View Post
      Sorry, "ease of use" doesn't mean automatic.

      I understand that there will be a learning curve involved, i just thought some machines might be slightly more user friendly than others, which doesnt sound like it is the case.

      Would the Lelit Combi suit my/her requirements as it has an included grinder. I understand the disadvantage if/when wanting to upgrade in the future, given that any future upgrade will require a purchase of a new grinder.

      I'm assuming the combined model would save on counter space?

      Or, am i better off buying a separate grinder and espresso machine from the start, given that the machine will have to be cheaper to accommodate the grinder?
      If you haven't already done so then watch this YouTube clip of the guys from Jetblack using the Lelit Combi. https://youtu.be/zMPQAVNXqvg It's a good clip to show how it works. It took over a minute to steam the milk, but it was a huge jug of milk as they were steaming enough for two lattes in one go. Most people drink double shot coffees these days so rather than splitting the shot like in this clip I would imagine you'd be extracting it straight into one cup then steaming a smaller amount of milk just for that one drink. Obviously it takes a bit longer overall to make two coffees, but I would imagine it'd only take 25-30sec to steam the milk for a single drink. It's a nice looking machine that performs well and I think you'd be quite happy with it.
      A couple of caveats with a combi machine: obviously you've already read about the downside of having the two units combined when it comes to onselling and also if one of them breaks down. In my mind this is worst case scenario stuff. If it doesn't break down and you like it you'll hopefully be keeping it for many years. The other however is that I highly recommend you don't keep beans in the grinder hopper. The reason is that they are exposed to high temperatures from the coffee machine when it's hot which would spoil them quickly. So if you go for this machine then just put enough coffee in the hopper each time you use the machine for the drink(s) you're going to make.
      Good luck with you search.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
        .........if you do not have quality beans being freshly ground just prior to being brewed .....you won't get good espresso. Period.
        Hey Java "Don't ignore the grinder!" phile

        I'm sure the OP would benefit from understanding WHY this occurs.

        I could give it a crack but given you have a few more thousand posts than I do I suspect you know more on the topic

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        • #19
          I'll add to this maybe going and doing a barista course. Made a massive difference to the way I make coffee, definitely worth the $200ish outlay

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
            What was unclear in my statement?


            Java "Clear as a bell" phile
            Beanbay sells pre-ground coffee for espresso

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            • #21
              Rather than taking this thread off-topic I'll keep this brief.

              Just as beans undergo chemical and physical changes during the roasting process they also undergo chemical and physical changes after roasting. (If they didn't they would never stale which would mean the beans would taste the same a thousand years after they were roasted as they did when they were removed from the roaster.) The most obvious changes are the out-gassing of CO2, oxidation, and absorption of moisture. These changes require that the grind fineness be adjusted so as to maintain the optimum extraction pressure and time.

              For more information on the hows' and whys' of roasted bean storage see the Roasted Bean Forum or use the Search/Advanced Search function located on the upper-right of every page.


              Java "Now back to the threads' topic" phile
              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
                Beanbay sells pre-ground coffee for espresso
                With the caveat:
                For quality, CoffeeSnobs strongly recommend buying as whole bean.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
                  Beanbay sells pre-ground coffee for espresso
                  So what?

                  Stop trying to put words in peoples mouths that they never said. Your constant trolling is getting really old.


                  Java "Read my post exactly and explicitly as typed!" phile
                  Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
                    So what?

                    Stop trying to put words in peoples mouths that they never said. Your constant trolling is getting really old.


                    Java "Read my post exactly and explicitly as typed!" phile
                    My point was that I have absolute faith in Andy only ever selling quality products and that if he offers pre-ground coffee as a option then one may safely assume that his pre-ground coffee is as good as pre-ground coffee can be and that it should be possible to brew a drinkable cuppa from it. Sure... there can be no question that freshly ground, freshly roasted coffee is the absolute ideal and that it should yield far superior coffee to anything pre-ground but the fact remains that many coffee enthusiasts out there simply cannot afford both a fine machine and a fine grinder and have to make the best of an imperfect situation. As such, seeking out the finest pre-ground coffee may be the best option available. Lastly, going back quite a few years now but there was a stage in my life when I had to make do with a Sunbeam and decent quality pre-ground coffee and I was able to crank out drinkable coffee more often than not... at least it was better than the stuff available at most of my local cafes. In any event... no trolling here... was simply presenting the other side of the coin for those with limited budgets.

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                    • #25
                      Agreed Bruce,

                      I'd be amongst the first to suggest that the OP purchase a grinder and put a hold on the machine if required...

                      I acknowledge that people come to this forum with different levels of geek/OCD and that whilst for some perfection is a bare minimum, others are just looking for the next step after Nescafe. I'm thankful that this forum brings some of those people to me.

                      My bag grinder is the least utilised piece of equipment in our warehouse. If you in directing someone to a source of high quality ground coffee or if a roaster such as myself or Andy by using a bag grinder to provide ground coffee to a customer makes for a troll, then I too am a troll.

                      Where's my bridge?

                      Chris

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                        Agreed Bruce,

                        I'd be amongst the first to suggest that the OP purchase a grinder and put a hold on the machine if required...

                        I acknowledge that people come to this forum with different levels of geek/OCD and that whilst for some perfection is a bare minimum, others are just looking for the next step after Nescafe. I'm thankful that this forum brings some of those people to me.

                        My bag grinder is the least utilised piece of equipment in our warehouse. If you in directing someone to a source of high quality ground coffee or if a roaster such as myself or Andy by using a bag grinder to provide ground coffee to a customer makes for a troll, then I too am a troll.

                        Where's my bridge?

                        Chris
                        Wait....what? Your suggesting i buy a grinder and not a machine until my budget can accommodate both?

                        So I'm buying my wife a grinder for her birthday? Not sure she will be that happy receiving something that she cannot use until i buy her a machine?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jymorgan View Post
                          Not sure she will be that happy receiving something that she cannot use until i buy her a machine?
                          There are probably hundreds of different ways to make great coffee. Espresso is merely one.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by K_Bean_Coffee
                            Buy a Lelit, Rancilio or Gaggia for quality, working life and re-sale value.
                            In your budget, all the advice you need IMO (although I'd leave the Gaggia off).

                            Otherwise you will buy an inferior product, only end up with a machine OR grinder or spend more than you have budgeted.
                            These machines all have one boiler and you need to flick a switch and wait for the boiler to reach steam point to do your milk, which means waiting around a few minutes. The Lelit grinder may scream like a banshee, unless it's been quietened since I owned one many years ago??
                            If you do not like this idea, then spend more money or go back to Sunbeam and Breville.
                            Alternatively, the endless cycle of research and advice awaits (I am great at this and have spent heaps of time doing it - so nothing wrong with that either).

                            Agree with the "do not use pre-ground coffee". If that's what you want then stick with pods.

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                            • #29
                              ease of use is a hard question to answer as most of the extra features in machines mean they end up costing more. at your price point it would have to be a single boiler to fit a grinder in the budget somewhere unless you go down the smart duo path.

                              I'd say its really up to you if you think an appliance that will probably only last 3-4 years is worth the much lower outlay at the start. amortising the cost over 3 or 4 years is easy with something like the BDB price point. even 1 coffee a day for 2 years at $4 minus bean cost lands you near the machine's cost.


                              otherwise a small single boiler like the lelit or rancillio are your best bet. you could even try and snag a 2nd hand mazzer mini or k3 push for a grinder and land around 1200 but of course for a bday present 2nd hand isnt gonna look great. haha
                              incidentally: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/coffee-har...der-black.html
                              and dont forget accessories. :O
                              a PID can always be added on later to the silvia too


                              also! a grinder for a birthday present isnt the worst if you think about it. she already has an aeropress

                              another option would be to get her a machine this year and a grinder next year hahaha. pre-ground for a year while she has more to be desired. or even a stand-in 2nd hand smart grinder until you get her a proper one.
                              while everyone argues preground is not ideal, we all make our journeys at the pace our wallets set, my few months pulling preground shots, then blade-ground shots with a minore really taught me first hand how important the grinder was.......... you live and you learn

                              hope this helps.
                              Last edited by timdimdom; 20 August 2016, 11:04 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Grinder also factors into ease of use. I find grinding directly into the portafilter much easier than spooning out ground coffee.

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