Best machine under $1200

[LeroyC]

Ooh, and I forgot about the La Pavoni Cappuccino I modified a couple of years ago. Another handy little machine, but like all the other the other budget machines it was slower to use and clean etc.
I've just picked up my Brugnetti on Thursday after it being away for 3 weeks. Man it is a joy to use and is a real luxury after using my Bialetti and Gaggia Classic for that time.

[skidquinn]

A slight rant.

As the owner of Rancilio Sylvia since early 2010 (V3?) I don't understand why Rancilio has not made a new model Sylvia with a PID by now, in 2016?
The latest Sylvia (2016 V5?) is just the same as V4 with a couple of near useless new features, it seems.

Silvia would sell for under AUS$1000 with a PID provided by the factory, with warranty, and most likely be the best machine under $1200 in that form.
It has advantage of using standard size E61 parts with 58 mm filters and tampers unlike non-standard portafilter size machines like Lelit (I don't get it why Lelit does this but this is another story).

I temperature surf my Sylvia (with help of $20 thermometer) to get a PID-like result.
It works OK but is a mild pain in the butt.
Yes, I could buy a PID and have it installed by someone for a price but I want one designed and integrated by Rancilio themselves because it is more likely to last years and years.

Ok, my rant is over! 8^)

Haha I agree with this one 100%.

[Yelta]

That is a good track record but, and please believe I really am curious and not trolling, how is the user experience leagues ahead of a 300 dollar machine? To my simple old 80YO mind the functions are very similar for all machines: grind up the beans, press it into the filter holder, insert in machine, turn it on and hey presto coffee gets pumped out. Seems to me the resultant coffee taste depends on the bean/grinder quality rather than the machine and the ritual just described.

Note I'm not trying to rubbish your post or your machine but I am genuinely curious to understand how the whole user experience is leagues ahead.

Evening Tassie_Devil,

Better quality machines certainly are a joy to use compared to less expensive appliances, and, for the most part producing quality espresso becomes less of a challenge, of course whether or not the extra dollars are justified is pretty much dependent on the taste buds and outlook of the individual.

Bear in mind that the coffee thing is very much an all consuming hobby to many of us, and, like all hobbies people can become quite obsessive and spend ridiculous amounts of cash in their never ending quest for perfection, and of course, like nirvana an unattainable goal, nonetheless the quest must continue.

Of course we cant forget the skill or lack of, of the operator, a good home barista can produce decent espresso on most machines, whilst those lacking in skills using quality fresh beans will produce dish water on the most sophisticated equipment.

As others have commented, good espresso can be produced on cheaper machines.

[wattgn]

It is very Italian to design something simple and to keep it that way. I like that.

[readeral]

What's Rancilio's loss is Lelit's gain I'm afraid acid_rider.

[acid_rider]

A slight rant.

As the owner of Rancilio Sylvia since early 2010 (V3?) I don't understand why Rancilio has not made a new model Sylvia with a PID by now, in 2016?
The latest Sylvia (2016 V5?) is just the same as V4 with a couple of near useless new features, it seems.

Silvia would sell for under AUS$1000 with a PID provided by the factory, with warranty, and most likely be the best machine under $1200 in that form.
It has advantage of using standard size E61 parts with 58 mm filters and tampers unlike non-standard portafilter size machines like Lelit (I don't get it why Lelit does this but this is another story).

I temperature surf my Sylvia (with help of $20 thermometer) to get a PID-like result.
It works OK but is a mild pain in the butt.
Yes, I could buy a PID and have it installed by someone for a price but I want one designed and integrated by Rancilio themselves because it is more likely to last years and years.

Ok, my rant is over! 8^)

[trentski]

That is a good track record but, and please believe I really am curious and not trolling, how is the user experience leagues ahead of a 300 dollar machine?.

Your $300 machine will most likely be single thermoblock. If you are lucky single boiler.
Mine is an hx with an e61 grouphead. This makes it incredibly temp stable and the inbuilt preinfusion with the e61 group makes it very forgiving of variations in grind and tamp. 58mm group for lots of coffee in the basket.
The hx means I can steam at the same time I pull shots. I can start the shot, start steaming the milk, walk away and come back 20 seconds later to switch everything off.
Then I can go again straight away, no waiting and no drop in quality.
No temp surfing, no waiting for thermoblock to heat up before I can steam, dry steam not wet steam. No switching boiler temps to get steam. Lever and knobs to start shot and control steam gives great tactile feedback. Easy to clean and backflush. Large water reservoir and drip tray.

You can make good even great coffee with a $300 machine. But, you have to work for it and results may vary. The $3000 machine makes it easy and consistently good even consistently great coffee.

[LeroyC]

That is a good track record but, and please believe I really am curious and not trolling, how is the user experience leagues ahead of a 300 dollar machine? To my simple old 80YO mind the functions are very similar for all machines: grind up the beans, press it into the filter holder, insert in machine, turn it on and hey presto coffee gets pumped out. Seems to me the resultant coffee taste depends on the bean/grinder quality rather than the machine and the ritual just described.

Note I'm not trying to rubbish your post or your machine but I am genuinely curious to understand how the whole user experience is leagues ahead.

I'm probably a good person to reply to some of your queries as I've used a wide variety of machines. Machines I've owned:

- Gaggia Classic
- Sunbeam EM4820
- Sunbeam EM5600
- Faema Due D92/A1
- Brugnetti Simona Top DE
- Bialetti Il Caffe

Machines I've used but not owned:

- Rocket Giotto Evo V3
- La Cimbali Junior

I've been able to make very good coffee with all but one of these machines. The Sunbeam EM5600 has some nice user friendly features, but just didn't produce decent coffee no matter what I tried. I can honestly put my hand on my heart and say that the more expensive the machine, the better the coffee and the nicer it was to use. There's some caveats in there as obviously not every machine suits every situation, and there's a learning curve with all of them. Little things for example like steaming milk in about 10-15sec on the Rocket as opposed to 30-40sec on my Brugnetti, or closer to 5sec on the Faema. So it comes down to horses for courses and if you're happy with you Delonghi then stick with it. But if your needs ever changed then it might not be suitable in the future.
The other thing I'd say is - DO NOT attempt to service/repair your Breville. They are not made to be opened and serviced by anyone other than trained people. They are hard to pull apart and are full of fragile plastic and electronic components that aren't easily worked on.
Cheers.

[wattgn]

That is a good track record but, and please believe I really am curious and not trolling, how is the user experience leagues ahead of a 300 dollar machine? To my simple old 80YO mind the functions are very similar for all machines: grind up the beans, press it into the filter holder, insert in machine, turn it on and hey presto coffee gets pumped out. Seems to me the resultant coffee taste depends on the bean/grinder quality rather than the machine and the ritual just described.

Note I'm not trying to rubbish your post or your machine but I am genuinely curious to understand how the whole user experience is leagues ahead.

People buy art to hang on a wall and look at. I like art that can make coffee.

[wattgn]

The company that makes the product is important. Breville and Sunbeam aren't committed to 20 year plus lifespans for products and having parts available for decades, they simply don't think that way.

The Italian companies that produce the commercial and prosumer machines do have an anticipated lifespan of decades for their products. They also generally keep the products very simple and robust so that they're made to last. Finally they're mostly hand made which makes them expensive but also rebuildable. The machines are made to be stripped and reassembled using human hands.

Machines like the Silvia are incredibly simple single boiler machines. It is dead easy to replace any part in them without any particular expertise.

You will notice also that stainless steel while providing bling also lasts incredibly well even with daily coffee acids and oils on them.

I look at the consumer coffee machines in the shops and I see nice machines but mass produced, not made to be rebuilt and using materials that are really not made to go the distance. They are also sometimes quite complex. Good luck if they go wrong out of warranty. You have some work to do, first to get the parts and the second to get into the machine and fix it.

I personally like an HX machine with a single boiler. Physical design is used to stabilize temperatures and do the work rather than fancy electronics prone to gong wrong. Espresso is simple and I think machines should be as simple as possible also. The fewer parts, the less electronics (preferably NONE), the better.

[Tassie_Devil]

I bought a 2800 dollar machine 7 years and it has cost me very little since. Its still worth over half the purchase price. Thats much better economics than a 300 dollar machine every year.

The whole user experience and results are leagues ahead of the 300 dollar machine as well.

That is a good track record but, and please believe I really am curious and not trolling, how is the user experience leagues ahead of a 300 dollar machine? To my simple old 80YO mind the functions are very similar for all machines: grind up the beans, press it into the filter holder, insert in machine, turn it on and hey presto coffee gets pumped out. Seems to me the resultant coffee taste depends on the bean/grinder quality rather than the machine and the ritual just described.

Note I'm not trying to rubbish your post or your machine but I am genuinely curious to understand how the whole user experience is leagues ahead.

[Yelta]

Same here. Rancilia Silvia purchased in 2005. Not a thing went wrong with it and only upgraded a couple of weeks ago because I saw the Lelit Mara and HAD TO HAVE IT !!! I've kept the Rocky grinder purchased at the same time.

The Silvia would be good for another 10 years I reckon.

Silvia's certainly were a very reliable little machine, I owned one for 9 trouble free years.

[Gratulin]

Best machine under $1200

Same here. Rancilia Silvia purchased in 2005. Not a thing went wrong with it and only upgraded a couple of weeks ago because I saw the Lelit Mara and HAD TO HAVE IT !!! I've kept the Rocky grinder purchased at the same time.

The Silvia would be good for another 10 years I reckon.

[Yelta]

I bought a 2800 dollar machine 7 years and it has cost me very little since. Its still worth over half the purchase price. Thats much better economics than a 300 dollar machine every year.

The whole user experience and results are leagues ahead of the 300 dollar machine as well.

Very similar experience Trentski.

Bought a Bezzera machine in Oct 2009, paid $2850 for it.

Recently had a vac valve replaced and general health check, total cost $90 42.

Other than this have only replaced group head seals every 12 months or so, a couple of shower screens and descaling chemicals every six months.

The machine runs as well as the day I bought it.

[trentski]

I bought a 2800 dollar machine 7 years and it has cost me very little since. Its still worth over half the purchase price. Thats much better economics than a 300 dollar machine every year.

The whole user experience and results are leagues ahead of the 300 dollar machine as well.