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Lelit PL60PLUST vs Sage (Breville) Dual Boiler

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  • #16
    Originally posted by flattie View Post
    I'm in London. Although the only supplier I could find for a Lelit here is based up near Birmingham.
    There's a place in Kentish Town that sells a range of espresso machines that I think provide reasonable service for most espresso machines. But you're right, they probably don't retail Lelit.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by coffe4me2
      I started with a Sunbeam and after 12 months the brushed stainless steel finish in the drip tray was pealing off the plastic substrate. My guess is that Breville quality would be comparable to that. Resale value of that sunbeam was terrible as well.
      In my experience Brevilles are a lot better than that. My BES900 didn't loss the shine in almost 5 years.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tupinamba View Post
        In my experience Brevilles are a lot better than that. My BES900 didn't loss the shine in almost 5 years.
        So do you rate the Breville then?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by flattie View Post
          So do you rate the Breville then?
          The Breville is functional yet easy to use. It heats up fast and according to the Coffee Geek guy temperature stability is excellent. I have changed the brewing temperature a few times and noticed quite a change in taste, even when drinking coffee with milk. On the con side my 900 suffered from teething problems that have been hopefully solved in the 920. I don't know if the machine will work well a few years from now. I have reasonable doubts about it. And the very worst problem for me have been dealing with the Australian retailer, Harvey Norman.

          Note than when I bought my first machine it was a good $1000 cheaper than a Lelit, now the prices are much closer.

          Also, between you and me, although I think I would go for the Lelit I don't buy much of the sponsor's talk . As I said before, Breville could have chosen to make their DB machine to look less than appliance and provide proper support through specialty shops at a higher price. They must be making a killing selling it to aspirational bogans through "The Good Guys" (this is another Aussie mass market retailer).
          Last edited by Tupinamba; 15 March 2017, 10:49 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Tupinamba View Post
            The Breville is functional yet easy to use. It heats up fast and according to the Coffee Geek guy temperature stability is excellent. I have changed the brewing temperature a few times and noticed quite a change in taste, even when drinking coffee with milk. On the con side my 900 suffered from teething problems that have been hopefully solved in the 920. I don't know if the machine will work well a few years from now. I have reasonable doubts about it. And the very worst problem for me have been dealing with the Australian retailer, Harvey Norman.

            Note than when I bought my first machine it was a good $1000 cheaper than a Lelit, now the prices are much closer.

            Also, between you and me, although I think I would buy the Lelit I don't buy much of the sponsor's talk . As I said before Breville could have chosen to make their DB machine to look less than appliance and provide proper support through specialty shops at a higher price. They must be making a killing selling it to aspirational bogans through "The Good Guys".
            Nice. Thanks for a bit of a balanced view.

            FYI, the Lelit DB here in the UK is cheaper than the Breville... so a plus for that!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by flattie View Post
              A few things I suppose - warm up time, consistency with the brew temp (I don't actually know how much I need to learn to get the temperature correct), learning curve?
              An e61 takes 20 to 30 minutes to warm up regardless of single boiler, hx or double boiler.
              Hx with e61 is no less temp stable than a double boiler, but often cheaper and less complex.
              I have a rocket giotto premium plus and its a walk up and pour a shot machine, most hx in australia are the same but the machines are often specified to our market and the UK dealers may not be at the same standard as the coffeesnob sponsors, although i am sure there are some good ones.
              Make sure you arent "educated" from US forums when looking at espresso machines. The 110v machines seem to behave quite differently from the 220v world.

              The lelit is built using standard espresso machine parts. If something fails in 5 years time there will be parts available. The same wont be said of the breville.
              The breville makes good coffee but it is complicated in build and difficult to repair.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by trentski View Post
                An e61 takes 20 to 30 minutes to warm up regardless of single boiler, hx or double boiler.
                Hx with e61 is no less temp stable than a double boiler, but often cheaper and less complex.
                I have a rocket giotto premium plus and its a walk up and pour a shot machine, most hx in australia are the same but the machines are often specified to our market and the UK dealers may not be at the same standard as the coffeesnob sponsors, although i am sure there are some good ones.
                Make sure you arent "educated" from US forums when looking at espresso machines. The 110v machines seem to behave quite differently from the 220v world.

                The lelit is built using standard espresso machine parts. If something fails in 5 years time there will be parts available. The same wont be said of the breville.
                The breville makes good coffee but it is complicated in build and difficult to repair.
                Right, but neither the Lelit nor the Breville have e61 groupheads... that may be an advantage in a home environment where fast warm up times are a plus. On the other side the e61 does look cool.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by trentski View Post
                  An e61 takes 20 to 30 minutes to warm up regardless of single boiler, hx or double boiler.
                  Hx with e61 is no less temp stable than a double boiler, but often cheaper and less complex..
                  Yeah I figured that after I read up a bit more. For now I don't think the E61 is the go for me so sticking with the two choices.

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                  • #24
                    Warm up times are a complete distraction and completely irrelavent in the real world.
                    It should not be a part of any decision making process.
                    There are pleanty of $10 timers , or even other gadgets to allow you to remotely control the machine from your smart phone if you feel it necessary.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by blend52 View Post
                      Warm up times are a complete distraction and completely irrelavent in the real world.
                      It should not be a part of any decision making process.
                      There are pleanty of $10 timers , or even other gadgets to allow you to remotely control the machine from your smart phone if you feel it necessary.
                      I respectfully disagree.

                      The timer is a workaround that people have to live with because of the machines they choose; Don't tell me if an E61 could warm up faster people wouldn't want that.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by blend52 View Post
                        Warm up times are a complete distraction and completely irrelavent in the real world.
                        It should not be a part of any decision making process.
                        .
                        That's opinion. I was trying to represent the facts in an unbiased way so the OP can make their own opinions. Looks like they have decided e61 isnt for them and thats fine with me.

                        Still would pick the lelit over the breville

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by flattie View Post
                          I respectfully disagree.

                          The timer is a workaround that people have to live with because of the machines they choose; Don't tell me if an E61 could warm up faster people wouldn't want that.
                          Well, no. The very nature of an e61 group head means that it won't ever be fast to heat up. But don't kid yourself either, a good quality dual boiler with a semi-commercial group head will still take a similar amount of time to reach optimal temp stability as an e61 HX machine. This is simply because it takes time to heat the mass of metal contained in the group head and portafilter, even the stainless steel in the Sage/Breville.
                          I don't really understand why people make such a fuss about warm up times. I'm a morning coffee person and I simply get up, go straight to the kitchen and turn my machine on then do a couple of other things, maybe have some breakfast and before you know it 20min has passed. In fact it's often more like 30-40min. I know everyone has different routines and morning schedules, but I think that unless you want to be up and out the door with a coffee in hand in 5-10min then warm up times shouldn't be a problem.
                          I've never owned a Breville DB, but I do like what it can do and certainly wouldn't count out buying one at some point. By all accounts it's capabilities, shot quality as well as its set of features are much more like a $20k La Marzocco or similar than other appliance brands. It's biggest down side is it's low build quality. They have a greater failure rate than prosumer machines and even at their best would only get 10-12 years before they're beyond repair. And that's the crux of it really. Comparing the Lelit and the Sage is sort of like comparing apples with oranges. They are both easy to use, but in different ways as the Sage is a bit more 'push button' and let the machine do the work, whereas the Lelit embodies the simplicity of flicking a brew switch and watching/timing/weighing your extraction. The Lelit could have a bigger learning curve, but you'll actually learn more along the way.
                          The other big difference is that you might get a good Sage that if well looked after will last 10-12 years, but I'd say that'd be about it. Whereas the Lelit is perpetually serviceable and repairable and has every chance of lasting 20, 30 or more years. Then again you might get a dodgy Sage that goes in for repair, spends 2-3 months there for the service centre to turn around and say it can't be repaired so they'll replace it. You end up with a refurbished machine that has the same problem 6 months later. This has happened to more than a few Breville owners here in Australia.
                          With all that said I really think your best bet is to get in to a specialist retailer like Bella Barista and get the low down on all the DB and HX machines in your price range.
                          A final point on warm up times. Things can be sped up by flushing water through the group head, but this isn't the best way to do it no matter what machine you owned. If I owned the following machines the minimum warm up times I'd allow for would be:
                          Sage DB - 10-15min
                          Lelit DB - 15min
                          Lelit, Expobar, Isomac or similar HX - 20min
                          Ultimately there's not a lot in it and while I wouldn't count it out altogether I'd make it a much lower priority than your other 'wants' when making a final decision.
                          Hope this all helps, make sure you let us know what you decide.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
                            [...] the Sage is a bit more 'push button' and let the machine do the work, whereas the Lelit embodies the simplicity of flicking a brew switch and watching/timing/weighing your extraction. The Lelit could have a bigger learning curve, but you'll actually learn more along the way. [...]
                            Hey, you make it sound like the Breville DB is something like a super auto! Any sensible user would at least time and watch the extraction (timing is actually made easy by a built in clock). A lot of people would weigh also. I don't trust the one shot and two shot volumetric buttons at all.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Tupinamba View Post
                              Hey, you make it sound like the Breville DB is something like a super auto! Any sensible user would at least time and watch the extraction (timing is actually made easy by a built in clock). A lot of people would weigh also. I don't trust the one shot and two shot volumetric buttons at all.
                              Of course. I know it's a bit long winded, but you'll see in my post that I mention that the Breville has some great features and capabilities. Letting the machine do the work for you is merely one of these many functions.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
                                Ultimately there's not a lot in it and while I wouldn't count it out altogether I'd make it a much lower priority than your other 'wants' when making a final decision.
                                Hope this all helps, make sure you let us know what you decide.
                                I get it that if I wanted an E61 it'd be a longer waiting time hence I've decided against it for now. All I was saying that if it was possible for a quicker warm up without all the fuss, people would be jumping all over it.


                                My wants were fairly simple, and I appreciate your write up.

                                With regards to Bella Barista, unfortunately nothing they stock is within my budget and as such have looked else where.

                                Right now I'm heavily leaning towards the Lelit but haven't yet discounted the Sage due to its extra features. Price wise they are about the same, I suppose it's just longevity and resell value I need to consider, as I don't envision keeping either machine for 5+ years.

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