Absolute Newbie Looking For 1st Machine - HELP!!

[WarrenK]

I would get four years extended warranty with any appliance, for the extra $100 or so, if available. Not sure what Breville offer, HN and other retailers offer it. About the same cost as for a service I guess. Good luck.

[Esky]

Not a bad deal. Is that the warehouse in Tingalpa?
I'd personally grab a Silvia if you can afford it. You could pair it with the smart grinder if you like. I have a smart grinder that I now only use for cold brew, but once used for espresso. It was alright but I noticed a huge improvement when I moved to a Eureka atom. At $199 though, I'd say go for it with the plan to one day upgrade to a much more heavy duty grinder.

[JerseyBean]

Well I have a completely new option...I can pick up the Breville Dual Boiler (the 920) for $650 from the Breville warehouse. It comes with 12 months warranty and is either ex-demo or a store return (possibly a mark on the unit). I have made arrangements to go see it in the morning and I’m thinking that is a pretty good buy. I can pick up the Breville Smart Grinder Pro for $199 from Myer (usually $329). Is that a decent option to go with it or can I do better on the grinder front?

Just to be clear that if it is a store return, it’s not a customer return. It was purely being returned by the store for cosmetic reasons.

[JerseyBean]

Hi JB and welcome to coffeesnobs!

The easy stuff first - the DeLonghi Magnifica is only worth looking at if you prioritise convenience over coffee quality. It's a super auto and won't be able to make real espresso like a semi auto can (ie a machine with a portafilter you fill with freshly ground coffee).

Budget is a bit trickier. But consider what you'd be prepared to spend to have 2 or 3 really good coffees per day, with little fuss, for many years from equipment that looks good in your kitchen. As you spend more, generally, these things improve:
1. quality/consistency of coffee
2. ease of use
3. longevity of equipment
4. aesthetics (subjective)

The tricky part of this is that everyone puts different weights on the importance of 1, 2, 3, 4. The good news is that there is more choice than ever before so with some info from the CS community you should be able to find the perfect machine for you.

Here's my perspective on the Italian gear.

You mention longevity is important so it would be worthwhile looking at the Silvia and Lelit range. We regularly have examples of these in our service department that are 10+ years old for a standard service (seals, clean, test etc). Not bad in terms of total cost of ownership!

Coffee quality: I'll just touch on a couple of points you and others have raised rather than trying to write a book!
- PID: this will improve brew water temperature stability in a single or dual boiler machine and therefore coffee flavour and consistency will improve. You don't need it to make great coffee but there is an incremental benefit that I think is generally worthwhile considering the extra cost. If the PID is also used for the steam function, the steam is stronger and more consistent. No Silvias have PID built in but you can option it. Lelit have a number of models with PID (41TEMD and 42TEMD to name two).
- Grinder - built in (combi) versus standalone: there are benefits of having a combi versus the equivalent stand alone version: you'll save $$, space and it's usually cleaner in terms of coffee grounds on the bench. There is no reduction in coffee quality. Lelit currently has three combis: 42EMI, 42TEMD and the Kate (82T). My view is that if there is a combi that suits your requirements, you're better off going for it versus the equivalent standalone option.

charlie
www.jetblackespresso.com.au

Hi Charlie, thank you for the welcome and all of that information. I’ve been investigating the options everyone has given me and on looking at the Lelit I have found Preloved and Ex-Demo machines available which happen to have the PID. As they aren’t new this brings the price down. 2 questions, 1: are these machines (Lelit, Rancilio, Gaggia ie non-appliance brand types, difficult to clean and maintain? I don’t fear the actual making of the coffee. I’m not slow to pick things up and therefore only going to be capable of handling a pod machine if you follow (which has kind of put me off the Magnicifica - although I realise it isn’t pod). and 2: is there a general consensus on buying ex-demo over secondhand or vice verse?

I think im going to offend all of the ‘proper’ coffee buffs here when I say I don’t actually like the look of the non-appliance machines, certainly the Lelit and Rancilio anyway as they just look like they should be in a cafe to me. The Gaggia would be okay for my kitchen and I fear I may end up with a Dynamic Duo purely for its looks as long as it can produce the coffee?? Any thoughts on that machine or any others that aren’t as professional looking?

[Lyrebird]

I am well and truly confused by the PID

P = Proportional : the further the temperature is below the set point the more the controller will turn the heater on.

I = Integral, a mathematical term about which you don't need to worry as it's useless on a closed system like a boiler*.

D = Derivative, a mathematical term related to the rate of change. The controller will look at how quickly the actual temperature is changing and turn the heater on more if it is approaching the set point slowly (and vice versa)


*Yes I know the boiler isn't a closed system when pulling a shot but a standard PID will be tuned to operate between shots.

For the geeks out there, the "I" input is technically a lossy integrator (eg a low pass filter). In effect it averages the input over a time period determined by the filter constants.

[JetBlack_Espresso]

Hello All,

First time using a forum too so my apologies if I get all of this wrong!!

My needs are minimal as I will only be making 2, possibly max 3 coffees per day (latte and cappuccino). I don’t really think I should be going over $1000 given the use it will be getting (see below). Ideally around the $700-800 but I am open to the cost if it will give the taste and longevity I want.

I was originally going with the Breville Barista Express as it seemed pretty foolproof for a newbie like me and having tried one, I liked how it worked/the way things turned out. Then I started wondering how it compared to the Infuser and even the Duo Temp (because I had been advised to pick up as decent a grinder as possible before worrying about the coffee machine...which got me thinking about the capabilities of the built in Barista grinder. So, my shortlist then changed to those 3 Brevilles, with a separate grinder if needed (I had looked at the Breville Smart Grinder Pro which had some good reviews on YouTube and is currently on sale from $349 down to $199. At the moment, I am erring on the separate grinder, however, I am not sure how good the Infuser or Duo Temp are which brings me here after researching my options further. From a quick look through some of the forums on here the Rancilio Silvia is recommended a lot (is any particular version better than others or should be avoided?) and the Gaggia Classic is another I’ve seen recommended.

I am just super confused by the comments that there will be a need for a PID? (I told you I was a newbie). In all of my searches, I’ve heard of a PID but nothing about fitting them myself??

Does anyone have a view on the sort of machine I should look for given it will be getting such little use? Do I need to spend big given I will only make one cup a day? Seattle Coffee Gear (YouTube) also suggested the DeLonghi Magnifica. I understand that is a different beast but is that even worth looking at?

Sorry for the long winded post!!

Many thanks guys 

Hi JB and welcome to coffeesnobs!

The easy stuff first - the DeLonghi Magnifica is only worth looking at if you prioritise convenience over coffee quality. It's a super auto and won't be able to make real espresso like a semi auto can (ie a machine with a portafilter you fill with freshly ground coffee).

Budget is a bit trickier. But consider what you'd be prepared to spend to have 2 or 3 really good coffees per day, with little fuss, for many years from equipment that looks good in your kitchen. As you spend more, generally, these things improve:
1. quality/consistency of coffee
2. ease of use
3. longevity of equipment
4. aesthetics (subjective)

The tricky part of this is that everyone puts different weights on the importance of 1, 2, 3, 4. The good news is that there is more choice than ever before so with some info from the CS community you should be able to find the perfect machine for you.

Here's my perspective on the Italian gear.

You mention longevity is important so it would be worthwhile looking at the Silvia and Lelit range. We regularly have examples of these in our service department that are 10+ years old for a standard service (seals, clean, test etc). Not bad in terms of total cost of ownership!

Coffee quality: I'll just touch on a couple of points you and others have raised rather than trying to write a book!
- PID: this will improve brew water temperature stability in a single or dual boiler machine and therefore coffee flavour and consistency will improve. You don't need it to make great coffee but there is an incremental benefit that I think is generally worthwhile considering the extra cost. If the PID is also used for the steam function, the steam is stronger and more consistent. No Silvias have PID built in but you can option it. Lelit have a number of models with PID (41TEMD and 42TEMD to name two).
- Grinder - built in (combi) versus standalone: there are benefits of having a combi versus the equivalent stand alone version: you'll save $$, space and it's usually cleaner in terms of coffee grounds on the bench. There is no reduction in coffee quality. Lelit currently has three combis: 42EMI, 42TEMD and the Kate (82T). My view is that if there is a combi that suits your requirements, you're better off going for it versus the equivalent standalone option.

charlie
www.jetblackespresso.com.au

[JerseyBean]

The reply re the PID hurts my brain �� Thank you for the information though!!!

[JerseyBean]

I’m so grateful for all of the replies. I’m also so glad I posted here because it does seem that for the most part all of the Brevilles are pretty similar (which was my thinking) and that the separate grinder was the sensible option for the best result. I had considered the Dynamic Duo Garrus mentions so I will have a look at that one as I know it is on sale at the moment, and will also check out the Sunbeam LeroyC and Arachon mention and the Infuser is still in the running Noidle22. I am interested in the Lelit after seeing them discussed so that’s another to consider!! I think I am happier to exclude the Duo Temp purely because I like the visual of the gauge to check I’m doing okay. I am well and truly confused by the PID now but I don’t it is something I need to worry about it seems

[arcachon]

Agree with Garrus that the Breville Dynamic Duo is your best bet if you’re ok to spend that bit more. Patience and shopping around till you get that $1000 deal is the key. They do pop up at the major electrical retailers.

[Garrus]

If you want to go up to $1000, look for a good deal on Breville Dynamic Duo. You will see it often listed for around $1500 but deals for around $1000 go up quite often.

This will give you the same grinder with a dual boiler machine. Since you enjoy milk based drinks, you will benefit a lot from a dual boiler. You never know, you might end up entertaining a few guests and dual boiler setups work really well for milk based drinks.

[arcachon]

Don't buy a combination machine (Barista Express). You will get much better results pairing the Breville Infuser with a separate grinder. I previously owned a Barista Express and ran it with a separate grinder in the period before upgrading to the Breville BES 920, the improvement in the coffee was noticeably better.

Combo machines also introduce more points of failure. There's a risk that a fault with the grinder could stuff up the coffee machine and vice versa.

[Lyrebird]

PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative controller. Basically a small process controller than can adjust the amount/when heat is applied to the boiler for thermal efficiency.

IMO the main advantage of a PID is avoiding overshoot.

This is important in a coffee machine brew boiler because they heat much faster than they cool so an overshoot will stay overshot for a long period (unless a cooling flush is performed).

It is debatable whether PID is much use for a steam boiler.

[noidle22]

The BES870 (Barista Express), BES840 (Infuser) and BES810 (Duo Temp) are the same machine internally minus a few small differences. They all use the same thermocoil, pump and over pressure valve (the BES810 does not have a solenoid valve on the group head, this doesn't affect coffee quality).

The main differences are in functionality such as programming, separate hot water spout and the addition of a pressure gauge.

The grinder in the BES870 is mechanically identical to what you find in the Smart Grinder or Dose Control Pro. The standalone grinders do have smaller step increments and a larger overall grind range so is still preferred to the grinder as found in the BES870 as you get better grind adjustment.
The main advantage to having the grinder outside the machine is that if either of them breaks down, when it is away for service you still have the other item to use.

If programmable shots aren't a requirement, a Duo Temp with a Smart Grinder will do well. The Duo Temp can be picked up for $299 and the Dose Control Pro for $199 (cheaper second hand, same with the Smart Grinder) so it's a decent price to get you started.

[Erimus]

Don't buy a combination machine (Barista Express). You will get much better results pairing the Breville Infuser with a separate grinder. I previously owned a Barista Express and ran it with a separate grinder in the period before upgrading to the Breville BES 920, the improvement in the coffee was noticeably better.

[WhatEverBeansNecessary]

PID - can’t for the life of me remember what it stands for. It’s wanky whatever it is. Basically its job is thermo-stability and in a dual boiler machine it does that job well. The newer model Silvia’s have it and some older machines have been modded by their owners.

PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative controller. Basically a small process controller than can adjust the amount/when heat is applied to the boiler for thermal efficiency. Ie make the the heat up quicker after you have poured a shot or steamed some milk. They basically do really simple maths to control the output by reading the output (boiler temp/pressure) and making small adjustments to the input (energy in/heating element). The P & I & D components all work slightly differently but combine in an algorithm to give you the best possible heating efficiency.

They are handy because they usually let you adjust the temperature set point as well as providing the efficient heating. They are by no means a miracle fix all - very handy if you have your technique down and want to adjust the temperature by a few degrees to get that little bit more out.