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Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

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  • Bullitt
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Hi Sanch,

    Frequency of de-scaling depends a bit on where you live and the quality of water there, I live in Tassy where water quality is good, and I use filtered water, 6 monthly should be adequate for me, some other places would need more frequent de-scaling, and if you dont use filtered water maybe as often as 2 monthly.
    Many of us use the Brita filter jug or similar to filter the water we put into Silvia, which helps a bit.

    I cannot see how de-scaling will make any difference to the GH seal leak that you have described, however,
    it might cause the three way solenoid to malfunction if some scale gets stuck in it, which is relatively easy to disassemble and clean out, and should probably be done anyway about each 12 months or so.

    I had similar problem to what you are describing when I replaced the GH seal on my Silvia, which turned out to be a thinner seal, which I could tell because I had to turn the PF further to the right to lock it in.
    Refitting GH seal it with a spacer behind it fixed the problem,
    (You can buy spacers from coffeeparts), however if your GH seal hasnt been replaced it doesnt really explain how the the problem started.
    The PF should lock in somewhere close to near straight out, if you have to turn it too far to the right, it is highly likely that the GH seal is too thin, and leaks will occur even with underdosing.

    If GH seal is OK, then overdosing of basket can also cause the type of leak you are describing.

    No the OPV can not self adjust on most Silvias. Later ones with the adjustable OPV could in theory self adjust IF they werent properly locked up, but this would be unlikely.

    In regards to the difference between the the two PFs I have found similar with the standard silvia PF and a standard Rancilio commercial PF that I prefer to use, they both lock in at slightly different location.

    I guess it is possible, although highly unlikely, that the service guys had two silvias in at same time, and you got a different one back, can you check the serial number, and do you have the serial number on any paperwork from original purchase?

    Regards
    Bullitt

    Leave a comment:


  • sanch
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Thanks dumiya,

    I tried the paper thing and got a mark all around the paper. The machine seems to be sealing a bit better now, so maybe it was a matter of letting the seal get used to the new aparatus.

    Im a bit paranoid about scale...should i descale my machine or use non-tap water in her? are those marks in the photo on the previous page scale??

    Cheers
    -S

    Leave a comment:


  • dumiya
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Hi
    I am thinking somehow there may be some scale or something under the seal especially on the LHS as per photo.  I am reluctant to say this as I would not like you to remove the seal to check.  My PF handle goes round to about 5:55 or just to the right of centre.  If I over fill the FB then I will get clear water dripping down the PF. ( the seal may be too thin or hardened past its usefulness)
    I usually roll a paper towel into a pencil shape and clean the seal and above the lip of the filter which is often really dirty with grinds.
    Practical
    Try putting a piece of paper across the top of the lip (cut round to fit) of the FB and gently fit the PF into the group and turn it until it touches the seal then remove to see if the seal has marked it evenly all a round.    There may be variations on this to get a visible check to see whether the pressure is even.  Try tightening it a bit more until there is a clear impression of the seal basket contact.  It may be the basket is warped or the seal is deformed.
    I will also experiment with this to refine the test
    Dumiya


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  • sanch
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Hi Guys,

    Thanks Scoota.  The Silvia is usually on for about 45min before I use it so I’m not sure why it stuck on that day.  Hasnt happened since though so thats good.

    I talked to the guy who did the repairs and he reckons he didnt do anything apart from the rust.  He suggested that maybe Ive got some scale built up on the seal so its not sealing properly.  Does that sound like it could be correct?  What does scale look like? Should I be using filtered water in Silvia?  Should I descale her often? How?

    Reubster that photo is a bit underexposed (looked a bit more shiny in real life) but I agree it needed a clean!  I pulled the showerscrean off again and gave all the little nooks and crannies a good scrub clean.  There was quite a bit of coffee powder gunk up in the grooves.  I cant get the brass shiny though; its still got those brown stains all over it (see the yellow ‘dot’ on the photo).  It’s also got white chalky marks on it like in the groove to the left of the green dot (though this might be cafetto that has dried on) and to the right of the green dot (these one’s aren’t cafetto and they wouldn’t come off).  Are they scale?

    Also one of the bits that come off with the showerscreen wont go shiny either.  Is this scale? (see the area around the blue dot as opposed to the purple dots).  There is also this dint thing (below the purple dot) – is that normal? I haven’t dropped it or anything.

    Ok…sorry for the ‘dots’!

    In terms of the ‘dripping’ I put the old FB into my new PF and there is much less dripping.  I still get dripping occasionally though.  So maybe Reubster’s point 2 explains part of the problem, thanks Reubster!  The clean helped things too I think.  

    Um, so I’m not sure if it’s exactly “problem solved” but I’ll keep an eye on things.  

    Thanks Guys!


    Leave a comment:


  • scoota_gal
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Originally posted by Sammy link=1195440483/0#11 date=1195608661
    Thanks Scoota; i thought i read somewhere that it was bad to do this to the seal because over time it might wreck the seal. Dunno. Oh well its only the 1st time its happened.
    Sammy, just make sure that the machine is well warmed up before you take out the portafilter and it shouldnt be a problem. You want it all nice and warm anyway to get the best shot. I found that it really only happens when the machine is cold and so is the group and seal.

    Leave a comment:


  • reubster
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Sammy


    My machine is about 4 years old and still has the original seal and its still going strong.
    I get the occasional leak, if I leave it too long between backflushing with espresso cleaner [I try to do this every 2nd week and daily without chemicals].
    The buildup of oils/gunk has an effect on the quality of the seal.
    Once cleaned, it seals beautifully again.

    Also make sure you wipe the lip of the PF before insertion.

    FWIW, mine is fully locked and sealed in a 6:10 position [ie just to the left of the centre] but bear in mind all machines/seals/PFs will be different.

    I agree with robusto, it sounds like the group seal is thinner, hence you need to  twist more anticlockwise to lock in the PF.

    Originally posted by Sammy link=1195440483/0#5 date=1195479054

    I think the normal porterfilter drips when i lock it into the same position so i now need to tighten it further to stop it dripping.  I tighten the bottomless one as much as i can and i still get dripping.  

    Hmmm...
    Well, if it used to seal ok [with the original PF] then I reckon either one of two things has occured:
    1)     The group seal was changed during the service/repair and its thinner than before.
    2)     The "NEW" naked PF has a a different lip  to the original and therefore it is probably distorting the group seal, in which case after a little time it should settle.

    The seal looks like umm err a seal,  its hard to tell, there may be many generic types available, but it looks like mine.
    It does have some gunk on it, and I believe this may be enough to cause a leak.

    Putting this as gently as possible, from that photo it looks like  the group is pretty dirty, it should look like shiny brass, so Im guessing that you need to backflush with chemicals more frequently and this should also assist with the leaking problem.

    Also, after every session do the "PF Wiggle" ie run water through group and wiggle the PF around to help clean it. You can also put a wet "chux" on top of the PF, insert it and do the wiggle.

    The leaking 3way valve may be another problem, but 1 thing at the time.


    Good luck, keep us posted.

    Leave a comment:


  • sanch
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Thanks Scoota; i thought i read somewhere that it was bad to do this to the seal because over time it might wreck the seal. Dunno. Oh well its only the 1st time its happened.

    Robusto, Im pretty sure the machine is an infant; i bought it brand new from a site sponsor a few months ago. The only time its left my sight has been before i bought it and when it was in for repairs last week (under warranty with the official guys doing the work)...im sure they wouldnt do anything like that without me knowing...I hope!!!

    In terms of the seal, I had another look yesterday, took the showerscreen off again and took some photos of the seal. What do you think?

    Leave a comment:


  • robusto
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Sammy, portafilter at 5 oclock position to me spells one thing: under-size seal. Its too thin. And obviously not sealing. That would be either because it is severely worn or the wrong size to start with.

    Silvia seals have a chamfered or bevel edge -- make sure that faces the group, not the basket.

    The other problems you mention, dripping 3-way valve, steam wand....are you sure the machine is only 4 months old? And that no-one has tinkered with it?





    Leave a comment:


  • scoota_gal
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Originally posted by Sammy link=1195440483/0#0 date=1195440483
    Also, my husband used Silvia this morning and when I got around to using her, the filterbasket seemed to have ‘stuck’ to the grouphead seal (it hasn’t happened before). I think he locked it in too tight after using it but then I thought that it might be because there’s something strange happening with the seal…
    This is normal and occurs to me on occasion as well with the Silvia. Usually, after turning it back on after its gone cold and Ive taken the portafilter out of the grouphead but left the filter basket stuck up on the group! Its no big deal, IMO.

    Leave a comment:


  • sanch
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Thanks for that info guys!

    Robusto, what do you mean by intermittent vs permanent dripping??? I intentionally underfilled the FB this morning and pulled an underextracted shot (60ml in about 19sec) with the PF locked tightly into the 5oclock position and i still got the dripping (it ran down the side of the PF where the body met the handle of the PF)...this would mean its not dripping from being overloaded wouldnt it. From memory I think i used to lock the normal PF into about 6 or 7oclock position...But i didnt really think about it, i just pulled it into position.

    Ive also noticed that water seems to be dripping out of the steam wand more than it used to normally do and water is also dripping out of the 3-way valve into the drip tray as the machine heats up (i just flicked Silvia on and happened to look at the drip tray and noticed that); ive never looked before so that may be a normal thing. The dripping slowed down as the machine heated up. Ive never scrutinised it this much so it could be normal but do these things indicate that the machine is operating at a higher pressure than it normally did? I havent touched the OPV; could transportation or anything like that make it self-adjust? How do you test the pressure?

    Im not sure what the group seal is supposed to be like but its smooth, firm and rubbery with a slight circumferential indentation of the FB. Seems in pretty good nick to me (but i have nothing to judge it agains). I dont really want to replace it if its not the problem, but i guess if nothing else can be figured out i might have to do that.

    Leave a comment:


  • AndyNZ
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Im with robusto, definitely sounds like a bad group seal/gasket.

    You could try replacing it with a commercial rancilio group gasket, the same size but apparently firmer that the silvia one (according to espressoparts.coms description)

    Leave a comment:


  • robusto
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Sammy, intermittent driping is usually caused by an overloaded basket.

    On older machines, permanent dripping is almost certainly caused by improper sealing between the the rim of the basket and the group seal.

    After four months of normal use though, your group seal should still be in pristinine condition.

    Id check the rims to make sure they are smooth -- they should be. A new seal should fix the problem.

    Otherwise, check the overpressure valve-- it might be pumping out way above the 9-10 bar through the group instead of diverting water back into the tank.

    Your practice of NOT overtightening the screen screw is good -- they need only minimal torque and no encouragement to stay on fast!

    Also, portafilters dont need to be overtightened either-- from memory, the 7 oclock position was about right, at least on my ex.

    Leave a comment:


  • sanch
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Hey guys

    Thanks for that info...the dripping water isnt really that much of a problem in itself (though id prefer if it didnt do it), but im just a bit worried that it indicates something else is wrong. Hopefully not!

    I agree Viviane; I definitely put the screen back the correct way (very very easy) and made sure i didnt do the screw up too tightly because ive heard warnings of it getting stuck there down the track if done up too tightly (thanks for the info matta i hadnt heard that before, i might try loosening it a bit tomorrow morning and see if that changes anything...though its pretty loose already). The Silvia had some rust taken out of the frame last week, so nothing near the group head.

    I think the normal porterfilter drips when i lock it into the same position so i now need to tighten it further to stop it dripping. I tighten the bottomless one as much as i can and i still get dripping.

    Hmmm...

    Leave a comment:


  • Viviane
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    I cant really help you with the cause of the dripping water, however I believe that reason for not over tightening the shower screen screw is so that you can undo it next time. I dont see any way that the shower screen or water dispersal can be put back the wrong way - it just wouldnt work. You dont say what work was done on your Silvia, the dripping can happen after changing a seal, while it beds in. Ordinarily though, I would think that 4 months was too soon to be changing it, though someone more knowledgable may have a different opinion. Does the portafilter lock in to the same position? Can you tighten it a bit further?

    Leave a comment:


  • matta_999
    replied
    Re: Clear Water Dripping around Portafilter

    Hi Sammy,

    I think your seal should be fine. you may have tightened the screw in the shower screen too much. This happened to me on an old breville machine. I removed the shower screen to clean it and found that it leaked water around the top of the group after i screwed it back in.

    I released the screw a little and found that this solved the problem. tightening the screw too much seemed to compress the seal up under the screen leaving more space between the filter basket and the seal.

    Rancilio also mention this on their Silvia website: "When reinstalling the dispersion screen, be sure to install the dispersion disk correctly. Do not overtighten the screw"

    Hopefully this helps

    Leave a comment:

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