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  • Sunbeam woes

    Hi people,

    Just wanted to vent my frustrations and hopefully warn others about the pitfalls of buying too cheap a machine.

    I bought an EM6910 in May last year and it is still under warranty. I attended the sunbeam course where I was told to use the machine with the pressure needle in the brown zone and have been doing that since. (Along with a purchase of a Gene cafe and many Kgs of greens from andy).

    Anwyay to cut a story short recently the machine has started to do somethign strange - when i do a good slow pout the pump kinda surges - It starts off with the pressure in the brown and then slowly drops down to gold, only to shoot back up to brown again then drop to gold etc...
    Heres a vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODo4cHC2bMo

    I returned it to the sunbeam repair agent who after a week told me it was fixed. I went to collect and was told there is nothing wrong with the machine. The agent then proceeded to put a double floored basket machine in the machine and showed me how the pressure gets to the gold. Apparently that is the acid test as to whether or not the machine is working ok.

    I phoned sunbeam this morning and was told the same thing. They basically said that the machine is working fine and it is my technique at fault. I apparently need to be in the gold zone while doing my pour. I was also told that I was mistaken and they dont say to go into the brown at the course.

    They have offered to send me their complimentary preground coffee to show me how to grind.

    Apparently if the motor were to surge when the pressure guage is in the gold or when the blind filter is in place then there is a problem but at any other pressure this is nothing more than user error.

    All in all this is pretty bad customer support and i realise now that buying cheap is not necessarily cheaper.

    It looks like I wasted $700 and need to somehow come up with a few more thousand so ensure i can get my regular coffee kick.

    So basically to anyone contimplating the EM6910 - yes it is a great machine, but dont be fooled by the talk of warranty periods and customer support - unless you use it exactly like they want you to the warranty is not worth the paper it is written on.

  • #2
    Re: Sunbeam woes

    Definitely a fault. Have you tried ringing Sunbeam back and trying for another operator?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Sunbeam woes

      I run mine to the start of the red and have no problems.
      In fact if the guage is in the gold it is a very runny fast pour.

      The surging needle is a sign of a problem.
      Id emphasise that bit.
      It isnt an intermitent surge, its consistant and thats not right.

      I had a dead steam pump on the previous 6900 and it came back working but it turns out, untouched.
      When they checked it at the service centre it was working so they ignored the report that the customer service rep and I agreed it was dead.

      5 days later it packed in again and they ended up sending me a new 6910.
      The point is, they are not always right.

      I agree with m@, call again and hope for a different operator.
      Theres a good chance youll get one.
      Ask for Steve; hes nice.

      Dont tell them about what I do.
      But if it comes up in conversation insist that you were told at the course to use the brown zone.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Sunbeam woes

        Hi Anthony,..my 6910 has been doing this surge thing since the day I bought it in Jan 08, but not with every pour.

        It happened quite often in the early days of using it, but now it happens only occasionally,.. and as a bizarre co-incidence, it actually happened this morning,..the first time I have seen it in quite a while.  I just thought to myself .. oh hello,.. Ive stuffed up the dosing/tamping again I see".  

        This surging thing has never worried me in the slightest however,. and it never even occured to me that the machine might be faulty . I just assumed this was normal behaviour for pressure build up where it would surge (pin way up right) as the pressure was unable to be released at such a rate needed via the extraction through the puk.  After some wait theres the slow drip drip drip...the pressure releases slightly and the pin goes back to normal position,..then pressure builds up too quickly again (but really its the extraction thats happening too slowly) and again..drip drip drip releases a little pressure and the pin goes back to normal and so on. After approx 30-40 secs the surging stops and the pressure gauge remains steady, I assume because the puk is now saturated and flow begins to go a little faster.

        I noticed that when these surge pours occur,.. there is always a long long wait before the extraction even begins,.. then just a long time of drip drip drip drip,..which indicates to me that I have dosed/tamped too much (for the machine to handle), since my grind has stayed pretty much the same for a while now. The full pour is always so slow, sometimes over 60sec,.. just drips for most of the time,. with a final few second pour at the end.

        In the early days I quickly realised that much of the surging was happening because the grounds were too fine and combined with my dosing level and tamping, the extractions were really struggling to come through at all,.. I even had a few spurters out the top of the PF.  I figured the grind was too fine because there was also residue grounds at the bottom of the cup (not good) and some if these fine grounds would lodge themselves in the holes of the basket(also not good) :.  At the time, I was buying grounds and so I had to get my local roaster to dial in slightly coarser next time and the surging stopped.  

        It surged a few times in a row when I finally got my own grinder because I had to get used to using a slightly different degree of grind and adapt my dose and tamp to suit.

        So,..given my experience with my 6910 with and without a grinder,.. I basically just use the surge as an indicator that I have done some poor dosing/tamping once I have the grind setting dialed in correctly. I figured that this happens because of my inexperience (this morning was due to my inattentiveness) and I never thought it was anything to worry about.

        Oh and I aim for the brown zone and get it pretty much every time now. I never get it in the yellow zone. It reaches top of red very occasionally for a few seconds without problems. I have found this produces great shots. When I used to try for the pin in the yellow zone, the extractions were just way too short and runny, blonding quickly and crema poor.




        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Sunbeam woes

          Thanks for the reply guys. I have spoken to two different operators and on both occasions it has gotten out of hand and ended up with them telling me that it must be my technique at fault.

          Every time I have a hard time remaining calm and this last time i at least convinced them to let me email that video to them (dont know if thye will look at it though).

          I dont think these people can be reasoned with.

          I tell them "If the guage fluctuates when in the gold is this a fault" And they say Yes. I then ask "If i put the blind filter in and it fluctuates in the red is this a fault" and they say Yes. I then ask "If it fluctuates in the Brown is this a fault" and they say "No it must be your technique".

          They refuse to discuss it further i untill i get their complimentary (they pushed that word a lot) preground coffee. I know exactly what will happen - this coffee will go into the gold on the guage with no problem. When i phone them they will say "see we told you".

          The bottom line according to the sunbeam operator is that they must stand by their repair agents decision - it woudl appear that the days of giving the customer the benefit of the doubt are way over. I understand 100% that this is a hard problem to reproduce and that is why I have even made a video and told them they are free to come to my house to see the problem occur. I think as a last resort I should offer to go to sunbeam and show them my problem and then ask them so show it to me on a new machine to prove that this is not normal operation.

          Man I just wish I had the cash aside to speak to a sponser and get a real machine!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Sunbeam woes

            I too have had the same thing, not as extreme as that, but usually when I have choked it with the grind too fine as it pulses through the shot.

            Seems to be a fine line, I can just hit the red at the start of the pour and it will run smoothly, producing a good shot with quite a dark crema. Anywhere from just the edge of red / brown to a mm or 2 toward the gold seems to be the right spot for my machine.

            When it pulses, I take that as a sign to back the grind off a notch or 3. If I end up running too quickly, then I adjust the grind again until I get the needle at that point.

            Am I guessing that you have it ground quite fine, and perhaps underdossed?

            I generally get that result when I grind, then level off the PF (say with the back of a knife), then tamp and run the shot. This machine does not like "traditional" dosing.

            For my machine and grind, I dose with 2 level scoops (7gms each I think), then tap the PF on the bench to settle the grinds. Then put in a further scoop, tamp and then run the shot. No further settling, nor any grounds swept from the PF (so 21g in total in the double basket). I do this routine religously so that if I get any variation in the shot, I know its to do with other factors (different beans, humidity etc) and leave as few variables as I can.

            Im by no means an expert, and each machine is possibly different, but dont write it off just yet, unless ofcourse you want to send it to me as a donation

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Sunbeam woes

              Nope senator I am not about to donate the machine just yet. I agree that you need a pretty fine grind to produce the problem but I find that is the only way to get that honey like run from this machine.

              Sure i can back off the grind a notch and probably get a satisfactory result form the machine but my biggest worry is that the pressure range that this problem occures in will slowly increase untill the machine is useless. At that point my warranty will be over I am sure.

              On a side note - when i got home tonight I put in the DVD that sunbeam provided me while on the course. While they dont talk about the pressure guage at all, i did notice that every pour that they did in the video you can see the pressure guage well into the brown at the 3 oclock position. I wonder what the sunbeam support will say about that considering that they told me I was lying when I told them the course told me to use the brown zone.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Sunbeam woes

                Ring again and ask for Steve.
                Start from scratch; dont say youve called before.
                Only mention the video if you have to.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Sunbeam woes

                  Just a note on my usual dosing & tamping technique. This has worked for me and resulted in not seeing that surging thing for quite a long while (except for this morning :,..I was a bit pre-occupied with my three children and the breakfast commotion, yarpin away while preparing my coffee and I cant even remember how I dosed and tamped)

                  1. Grind directly into the PF as much as I can fit before it spills (I move the PF from side to side to avoid mountaining in the middle of the PF) and then tap on bench a few times and tamp down moderately.
                  2. Grind more into PF a second time, same as before, tap and tamp moderately.
                  3. Grind last little bit into the PF, level off even with top of PF and tamp with good amount of pressure. This last process goes something like,..press very firmly and evenly & twist,..tap around edges of PF to knock any outer walls of loose ground down and onto the surface. Again, press & twist, knock down any walls until the surface is flat with slight sheen, grounds pressed tight all the way up to the wall of the PF, no loose grounds anywhere either in or on the PF. By the time Im done,.. I can turn it upside down without losing anything and the surface of the gounds is usually 4mm from the top of the PF.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Sunbeam woes

                    Dont want to sound like a broken record but mine has done that as well when I have overfilled the PF and/or the grind was too fine - so as to almost choke the machine.

                    I can understand how you feel though. With these machines you never know whether its operator error or if there is geniunely something wrong with the machine.

                    Two pieces of advice. One try the routine as described by Remy above, minimising variables ie keep dose and tamp consistent and play with grind. Two keep ringing Sunbeam with the hope of speaking to someone who actually listens to your problem.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Sunbeam woes

                      Oh and while on the subject of the Sunbeam Course... as it happens with boring monotony... Canberra is again the forgotten city and as per usual Canberrans arent worthy enough to bother holding a course here. On that note,.. I will never get to go to that free course.. but thankyou Anthony for mentioning a DVD that was given out at the course.  I will ring Sunbeam tomorrow and ask them to send me a copy of that DVD and any other information they can spare since they will take my money here in Canberra but expect me to drive at least 300k if I want to attend their free course.  There were no course leaflets around when I bought mine, and I only heard about it from here,.. however I went back into the store last week and they have leaflets there now.  Sure all we Canberrans can simply drive to Sydney and back for the course. *sigh*

                      EDITED TO ADD: Ok.. just re-read my post and it sounds a bit snotty,... spose it could be argued at least they do offer a free course...erm,..or is it factored into the cost of the machine?? anyway.... I appreciate that they at least offer it and many folk are able to make the most of this offer even if I cant.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Sunbeam woes

                        I found the course pretty useless actually. The only good thing about it was that you could practice with somebody elses milk and coffee and waste as much as you like! Oh and the machines all looked like they had been tweaked and modded to perform. For example the grinders were stepless where mine clicks between steps - and they were all calibrated perfectly to grind at level 11.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Sunbeam woes

                          could the surging be the over pressure valve cutting in and out?

                          I wouldnt be too bothered with the gauge, I bet its made for 20c and no 2 read alike, use it only as a reference between shots

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Sunbeam woes

                            Remy if you get no luck PM me and i will send a copy of that DVD to you.

                            Sunbeamer if you look at the video i posted you will hear the pump surges with the needle - if it were the valve i would expect the pump to remain constant. Also I would expect the pressure surge to do the opposite (ie drop down rapidly then build up slowly).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Sunbeam woes

                              I say again that I get consistant shots on the redline with no surging.

                              Comment

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