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  • #16
    Re: Sunbeam woes

    Originally posted by anthonyd link=1205724193/0#13 date=1205753578
    Remy if you get no luck PM me and i will send a copy of that DVD to you.
    Thanks Anthony,.that would be great!

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Sunbeam woes

      Originally posted by Thundergod link=1205724193/0#14 date=1205757005
      I say again that I get consistant shots on the redline with no surging.
      Hey TG,.can you describe your dosing and tamping technique? (or point us to it, if youve already posted this somewhere).  I want to see if I can create a similar puk and get a redline pour to see if mine surges there. I know this might be hard to achieve since it would be near impossible to determine your grind setting but there might be something that we can learn from your dosing & tamping anyway.  When you say redline... are you right in the red?,..or just at the leading edge?

      As mine is now,.. I need to dial down one because its still a little too fine (rogue grounds occasionally find their way down my neck and I feel like I need to cough up a furrball : ) ::runs to CM and makes a one step adjustment in the only direction it will go,..and hoping it will be coarser, not finer::  And if I got coarser,..Im going to have to increase tamp pressure hugely I think,..if I am to reach the redline again. Not sure if my girlie wrist will be up to the challenge tho. Will find out in the morning.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Sunbeam woes

        Originally posted by Thundergod link=1205724193/0#14 date=1205757005
        I say again that I get consistant shots on the redline with no surging.
        When mine RED lines I can go for 15 to 20 seconds with no extraction coming forth... Cant say I have noticed any surging... But I know that by 20 - 25 Sec and a no show, I must have really choked the poor old girl. If it blows a seal... Do I blame Sunbeam... NO it is USER error.

        I usually try for the mid of the Brown..... but I sometimes get it wrong....

        However like many systems, when we push beyond what the manufactured recommends, we can not blame the product or the manufacturer if the performance is not there. It is not unlike over clocking a CPU.. Some take it better than others, but once you operate outside of the stated specifications, then the outcomes will always be open to subjective rather than objective measures.

        I am sure that with even the better machines I could push the grind and tamping to obtain what I thought might be pure nectar. However know I could be pushing pumps and OP valves to their limit...

        At the end of the day is your system performing as well as some.... Maybe not... However I do not think the unit is any where as bad a buy as implied in some of the posts...

        In addition for many, a different grind and tamp along with fresh local beans and a bloody great shot can be had in the top end of the gold.... High pressure does not always = a God shot.

        Whoever undertakes to set himself up as judge in the field of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods. Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Sunbeam woes

          Yes so true AM,.great post! I love my machine and think it does an awesome extraction when I get things right.

          Well,.this morning I experimented with the grind setting I changed last night. It hard to tell which way mine changes(I know now though) and I could only rotate in one direction because of a cracked colar inside with misaligning threads.

          Anyway..turns out the grind is one step coarser which is what I was hoping for, I tamped with more pressure than I normally would and accidently packed the basket higher following my normal dosing routine so it ended at about 2mm from the top. Oh well, I was hoping to push the dial into the red a tad,.. just to see if this would cause surging, so I left it that way. The dial didnt make it all the way to the red,.it reached exactly at the short line before the red line and stayed there through the whole pour. The basket was packed solid and yet the machine behaved beautifully.

          I will stay with this grind setting now,..it is much better, the pour was still syrupy,..better than before infact because there was more of it and heaps more crema. After this little experiment,..I am convinced the surging happens when it is clogged and the machine is labouring,..ie the grind is too fine.

          Anthony,.. try setting your grind one or two steps coarser, then dose, pack and tamp very firmly and see what happens. If it surges with that,..set the grind another step coarser and try again. It would be interesting to hear if these changes will make a difference on your machine.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Sunbeam woes

            Remy I measure my beans into the double basket asyou know then pack all the resulting grinds back into it and tamp firmly.
            Im a big unit so its well over 15kg.
            The tamper gets almost down to the line between the metal and plastic.

            This usually gets the guage to the leading edge of the red zone.

            This morning one of the guys was using the pressurised single basket and for the first time since hes been using it (same coffee etc) it choked.
            Not a drop until it cut out.
            We think the hole was clogged so the basket is currently soaking.
            Someone had left it dirty and he had cleaned it before use.

            Whilst not issuing a drop the guage was sitting on the redline; not surging.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Sunbeam woes

              Ok,.Im going to try it the way you do it for my next pour either tonight or tomorrow morning. Though of course theres no way I would assume our grinds would be exactly the same.

              I just measured my usual tamp pressure and with my pidgeon wing...Im pretty sure Id be getting approx 13kg consistantly.

              Im embarrassed to admit (read the next bit fast then erase it from your memory) that I have choked my machine about 6 or 7 times in total, where not a drop has come through. :-[ Most of these chokes happened in the first week of using the machine when I didnt have a clue. Most also happened when I used the pressurised basket and knowing what I know now,.. I tamped too hard with grind too fine. I didnt realise until I read here on CS that these pressurised baskets were included for use with supermarket stale grounds to produce a crema of sorts. After the initial week of choking the machine to death,.. I had one choke a few weeks later (cant remember what I did) and I choked it again recently,.. about 10 days ago : and was shocked that I did it again . I think I just got over zealous with my packing and tamping,.. I fiddled with it too much and the grounds were close to the top..making quite tight to lock in on the GH. I thought at the time,.. I should have pulled it back off and scraped some out but I was too lazy and the choke was the result.

              Funny enough,.. these full-on chokes (not a drop),..the pump was very quiet through the whole dry pour : and there was no surging going on. It seems like the surges happen when the machine is choking/labouring but is still able to release a little extraction. Id really love to test this theory somehow.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Sunbeam woes

                Originally posted by Remy link=1205724193/15#20 date=1205809902
                It seems like the surges happen when the machine is choking/labouring but is still able to release a little extraction. Id really love to test this theory somehow.
                This is exactly how I reproduce the problem on my machine. Choke it and the neddle is steady in the red, but get it to the point where your pour starts with slow drops at first and the guage surges.

                This is definitly not something that happened with my machien from the start and as I said before my worry is that I am finding it easier and easier to reproduce. I fear that by the time it is surging all the time the warranty will be over.

                Please however keep in mind I am not complaining about the machine itself - for the price it is a great machine and I have been very happy with it. My gripe is that sunbeam offered a warranty and when when I have a problem I am told that my coffee is inferior to their "complimentry preground coffee" and my technique (that both their course and instructional video endorse) is up the wall. Whatever happened to giving the customer the benifit of the doubt or at least not treating them like idiots?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Sunbeam woes

                  Oh Anthony,.. after reading your last couple of paragraphs I totally get it now,..and I understand your annoyance better now too.

                  Ok,.in all of this you understandably have the worry that the minute your warranty is up,.. the machine could pack it in, and the surging issue might be part or cause of the problem, which was present while the warranty was current, yet you are getting nowhere with their support people regarding this issue now.

                  This surging thing may or may not be a problem, but you are worried it is becoming progressively easier for the machine to produce the surge, and therefore suspect it is a genuine machine fault.

                  Right,..well then you need to cover yourself!! You need to keep records of all conversation with Sunbeam support regarding this. If all your dealings with them so far have been via the phone, then pretend it never happened,..because you cant use he said, she said, and estimated dates when you are trying to get a replacement machine one day after your warranty runs out (isnt that always the way). You will have to start again with your concerns,.. and only converse with them via email.

                  That Steve guy sounds good,.. but get his email addy and do it that way. Obviously if you have already had some contact via email this is great. File copies of all emails with your warranty papers. Support people generally will then be accountable for what they say,.. they will need to think about what they write and give you correct information because you have it in writing and they wont want to be caught out misinforming you.

                  Be clear in what you write to them, state your concerns in such a way that if your machine does pack it in after warranty for the surge related problem, there is no doubt that you pointed out this problem to them way back when and they wouldnt listen to your concerns while warranty was current...you have this as proof that the problem existed while still in warranty and you have a record of how their support people handled it at the time.


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                  • #24
                    Re: Sunbeam woes

                    Its interesting to see that there are so many different slants on technique, yet most work well! I just love my 6910, altho still learning to use it. Its rather less forgiving than my old 4800c, but the results are worth it! Im reading that most of you updose and tamp hard. With mine, I can only put one level scoop, then one slightly heaped scoop in, and tamp (with a spring-loaded tamp) to 15kg. Any more and it chokes and nothing comes out... wellllll, eventually a couple of drops force themselves into the open air. When tamped, it sits a good 5mm under the top rim. Ive tried to put more in but it just doesnt work on my machine! Ive had the puck sticking to the screen, choking, surging etc if i try. Maybe the newer machines have a smaller basket? Anyone else having to put less rather than more coffee in, or am I doing something wrong?
                    Rob

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                    • #25
                      Re: Sunbeam woes

                      The 6910 I picked up at Christamas has smaller baskets than the 6900 it replaced.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Sunbeam woes

                        hi all
                        this is a bit long but hope it helps.

                        the later 6910 has smaller baskets
                        this is due to the problems they have had with people over dosing.(just like in the video)

                        the problems associated with the coffee pour could be related to
                        1/ the pump relief valve
                        2/coffee three way valve leaking or not clean.
                        (needs backflushing on a regular basis. i find the powder works better than the tablets supplied)
                        if the grind is too fine and the machine is working correctly, the gauge should read about 3 oclock and be steady.

                        problems like this can be hard to find because they dont happen all the time.
                        sunbeam dont test them with coffee, they use 2 different pfs, one with a 4mm hole (crema filter test) and the other with a blind to test for leaks and that the pump relief re;eases.

                        we as specialist coffee repairers test them by making coffee.
                        sometimes we cant find problems that the customers complain about.
                        and a lot of the time this comes down to technique or lack of.

                        so called barista courses have a lot to answer for.
                        if you want to learn how to use a domestic machine get taught on one that works the same or similar way,
                        commercial course are for commercial machines in a commercial use



                        if you visit sunbeam, in there lunchroom is a 6910 and grinder.

                        grinder set at mid range and taped up so no one can adjust it.
                        they use the conventional filter basket and have set the grinder so the machine runs in the middle of the coffee zone (12oclock or 11oclock on the later mod). this is how the machine is designed to operate.
                        I borrowed a double crema filter from service, overdosed and had a reasonable coffee. thought i was weird

                        the customer service operators are not technical people but have done the course
                        they have a list of questions and answers and have been shown how the machine should work.

                        sunbeam do not have a service department as such, but a R & D department. these people are not specialists at coffee machines and are only going on what they have been taught as to how the machine works. all staff that relate to coffee have done the coffee course, which has only probably helped to confuse them.

                        sunbeam have a small number of coffee repair specialists to try and sort out there probs.

                        the machine is made in asia and designed in asia.

                        in there marketing it has been incorrectly portayed as a commercial type machine. it is only an appliance.
                        looks well made inside until you try to work on them. the excessive noise is a fault of the design.
                        numerous internal changes have been made since they were first released, including some unnecessary ones.
                        (more changes to come, including, hopefully, a 9bar bypass(if we can mod at right price) this will save them heaps)

                        graham (euro coffee)




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                        • #27
                          Re: Sunbeam woes

                          Wow! fantastic info there Graham ..thanks for posting it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Sunbeam woes

                            Great post fix,

                            The 9bar bypass would be an excellent mod.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Sunbeam woes

                              Originally posted by Remy link=1205724193/15#15 date=1205759324
                              Originally posted by anthonyd link=1205724193/0#13 date=1205753578
                              Remy if you get no luck PM me and i will send a copy of that DVD to you.
                              Thanks Anthony,.that would be great!  
                              Rang them this morning and they are sending out a copy of the DVD. I also took the opportunity to ask a few questions while I had someone in-the-know eh hemm and it went like this;

                              Im having trouble with the machine surging and getting the grind right, so do you have a little sample satchel of the coffee grind that Sunbeam recommends so I can get a better understanding of what level of grind works well for this machine?
                              No,.well its just a fine grind  
                              hmmm that was helpful...NOT.  How long is a piece of string lady?? phrrrt!

                              What grinder are you using?? ,..like after that last comment, having this piece of information for her to work with, would make a whole lot of difference,...it didnt.  
                              Im using an Isomac GranMacinino grinder
                              Ohhhhh (in a tone that said theres the problem  :-?) well you just need to set it to fine :  You need to use the scoop,.. and you measure the amount of grind with the scoop provided.
                              Oh really?  I usually put in about 20g for the double basket. How much do you put in?
                              She says...wait for it....I put in about 2 1/4 scoops I think, but you have to tamp it 3 times.  

                              oh I totally see where Im doing it all wrong now Bwaaaaaaaaahaahahaha. Hmmm 2 1/4 scoops hey?? looks like Sunbeam will need to mod their scoop with next Machine release *snort*.  Gosh...maybe Ive only been tamping 2 or 4 times.  

                              And how do I increase the steam pressure in the steam wand? I need more pressure I think because Im having trouble lifting the blood splatter stains from my T-shirts after ripping my knuckles off when I remove the basket from the PF. alright..I didnt really ask that question. I didnt think she would know how to pimp the steam pressure anyway. ;D

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Sunbeam woes

                                TG,. I played around this morning with measuring/dosing/tamping etc.

                                I bought a set of digital scales yesterday (from Aldi,..great little scales too) for the purpose of weighing out beans for roasts,.. but it occured to me that it might help if I knew exactly how much I was packing in my double basket in my usual routine, so that I can make some changes if needed.

                                I was using the spare double basket to scoop whole beans into the hopper for a while, but I got pretty used to knowing what it looks like in the hopper so laziness set in and I started pouring in this amount from the bag,..anyway for the purpose of this exercise this morning, I scooped with double basket (slightly rounded,..but will go level next time).  I used all the grounds in the PF and tamped as I would normally and it was spot-on how much I usually pack in the PF.

                                Then I emptied the grounds into a little bowl on the scale (this scale subtracts the bowl weight,.awesome!) and looky here.. I have exactly 25g    

                                So I pulled 5g out of the bowl and packed the PF with the remainder, but I forgot to tamp like a trojan and probably only did it at about 13kg as usual. The space from the top of the PF was a little larger than I was used to and I thought for sure it will be a very short pour.  Luckily, I had switched back to the original setting that the grinder was on when I got it, because I think it would have blonded waay too early if I had left it on the coarser setting that I have been trying for a day or so.  As it was,.. it did blond before the end of the auto dble cycle and I had to stop it early.

                                The dial on the pressure gauge went to almost the leading edge of the red at first,. then through the pour gradually crept back to until it got to the second line of the brown. No surging (not that I expected it to).

                                So what have I learned from this?
                                1. Ive been updosing unknowingly/unecessarily, and using the spare dble basket to get a level scoop of beans will give me the perfect amount to dose. I should listen to you better. *smack* I weighed a level scoop of beans and taadaaah.. what do you know?! 20g  : .

                                2. Now that I have the dose sorted,..all I need to do now is,..either tamp a little harder,. and/or dial in a little finer to get a more consistant pour and the pressure dial behaving similar to yours.  

                                The grinder part arrived this morning whooooooot!!! thankyou TG!! and as soon as I change it over,.I will be able to play around a bit more and dial back one or two steps finer (its as fine as it will go ATM because its stuck on the cracked/misaligned thread as you know).

                                On a side note: I picked up a BBQ rotisserie thing from Big W yesterday also, so Im one step closer to better roasting too,.. just got to get out in that garage and finish my roaster. At least by the time I get a grind from beans roasted more slowly in the BBQ rotisserie drum,. I will have my dosing and tamping routine down pat.

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