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  • Where do I start??

    Please help! My mother has offered to get us a middle range coffee machine for our wedding gift, but I have no idea where to start! I have gone through the main department stores and talked to the sales people and then looked up reviews to find conflicting information and have trawled the Internet to no avail. I just have no idea where to start!

    Basically I am looking for a middle range machine that will last a few years and produces quality rather than quantity. I am not concerned about features (as in electronic lights and buttons) and would like something I can learn with. Somethign that is not too automatic so it will force me to learn.

    From reading these forums, it appears that Breville and Sunbeam produce some good units as the mainstay of department stores, however Sylvia pops up quite frequently as well.

    Can anyone help me get started along the path of finding a coffee machine before I grow old trying to learn about everything?

    All I do know is that my search for good coffee in cafes has yielded average results. I am generally not satisfied and I suspect I can do a pretty good job myself with the right knowledge and equipment and coffee. Its the taste I am concerned with rather than the caffeine content.

    Any ideas?

  • #2
    Re: Where do I start??

    Welcome Benny

    Out of the 3 machines you have mentioned a Silvia would be the best by a long shot

    However a Grinder is just as important & some would argue more important than the machine

    So my advice is get the best grinder you can afford and it will make any machine produce better coffee

    Remember Good grinder = good coffee

    KK



    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Where do I start??

      Thank you Koffee Kosmo. Indeed many discussions on this forum emphasise the need for a good grinder, however a cursory glance over some site sponsors shows grinders costing almost as much as the machine again. This leaves me in a predicament of sacrificing machine quality to obtain a usable grinder.

      Is it possible to purchase ground coffee from a site sponsor such as Coffee Hit and focus on a good machine? One discussion suggested that in fact one should focus on a grinder *first*, however this would appear to defeat the purpose at this time.

      I have had a barista explain to me once that coffee should be ground daily depending on local conditions and for a specific machine so I am not sure if pre-ground coffee is advisable?

      Regarding Sylvia, a quick look through the site sponsors shows a price range of around $800, does this sound correct? If this is the case and the difference in quality is so substantial over a sunbeam or a breville, then this would seem to be worth the expense if I can forego a grinder at this time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Where do I start??

        I have had a barista explain to me once that coffee should be ground daily depending on local conditions and for a specific machine so I am not sure if pre-ground coffee is advisable?
        Make that seconds B/4 making a coffee

        Is it possible to purchase ground coffee from a site sponsor such as Coffee Hit and focus on a good machine?  One discussion suggested that in fact one should focus on a grinder *first*, however this would appear to defeat the purpose at this time.
        You wont be satisfied in terms of taste as coffee goes stale quickly after grinding ( and no the fridge wont keep it fresh)

        Regarding Sylvia, a quick look through the site sponsors shows a price range of around $800, does this sound correct?  If this is the case and the difference in quality is so substantial over a sunbeam or a breville, then this would seem to be worth the expense if I can forego a grinder at this time.
        Sounds about right
        However you could place a wanted post In the Hardware for sale or wait for one to come up
        That will give you a little extra cash to get a good grinder



        Edit
        Have a look at this machine Nemox Dell Opera from Coffee Machine Express
        http://coffeemachine.com.au/nemox-c-47.html?infoBox=1&osCsid=adc22a973c34dcef2d38d43b9 9daae91

        Its a Machine / Grinder Combo


        KK

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Where do I start??

          The Silvia isnt glamorous, but will indeed force you to learn, has the ability to produce a better coffee than the other two, and will certainly outlast them by a long shot!

          As for the importance of a grinder - well, what goes in comes out. In other words, a better (translate that to generally more expensive) grinder will produce consistent grinds, allowing the coffee machine to force water through the puck in a uniform manner.

          The suggestion that coffee should be ground daily is ridiculous. Coffee should be ground immediately before preparing that particular extraction. Im sure Coffee Hit will sell you ground coffee, as would I or any other Sponsor, if there is no alternative, and on the basis that our ground coffee is still fresher than anything you can buy in a supermarket.

          To give you some further understanding on the weight placed on the importance of a grinder, I currently use a Mazzer that you can buy 2nd hand for around $500 to prepare coffee used in an AeroPress that you can buy new for $49.

          If I were faced with your decision Id probably buy something like the Breville Ikon and match it with something like a Compak K3. That way, youll be able to enjoy great coffees, and when and if you decide to upgrade your machine, youll still have a grinder capable of getting the job done.

          Finally, speak to Chris from Talk Coffee. For the price of a phone call, I am certain he will give you the best advice possible.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Where do I start??

            Welcome to Coffee Snobs Benny.

            Lets start with what you mentioned.

            A machine that will last a few years.
            Of the ones you mentioned, the Sivia wins hands down.

            I use a Sunbeam at work and while it does get a lot more use than it would in a home, its 7 months old now and in desperate need of a group head replacement due to wear. It leaks like a sieve with a hole in it.

            A Sunbeam at home may last a few years but for the little extra cost go Silvia.

            The barista that told "coffee should be ground daily" either doesnt know what hes talking about or you misunderstood when he said you may need to adjust the grind every day depending on conditions (humidity, bean age etc).

            Ground coffee lasts a few minutes.

            Back to the grinder.
            It is the most important piece of the puzzle.

            A good grinder will get the most out of freshly roasted beans and a machine.

            A bad grinder will waste your efforts in trying to achieve a decent tasting coffee.

            My suggestion is to buy a good grinder and use a plunger or a Presso or an AeroPress to make your coffee with for a start and then save up for a Silvia or better.

            Minimum grinders:
            Ascaso mini
            Rocky

            Where are you located so we may be able to suggest a local sponsor.
            If youre in Sydney you can even come around to my place and we can discuss this further over a coffee.

            P.S. My typing must be getting slower, those other two beat me to replying.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Where do I start??

              Im sorry to say it, but my experience agrees with what has already been said.
              I had a reasonable La San Marco home machine and made average espresso for years until I upgraded my grinder to a Rocky.
              With the LSM finally having terminal problems the VBM Domobar improved the espresso again, but not nearly as much as the Rocky.
              If the coffee isnt right, the beverage made wont be either.
              Greg

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Where do I start??

                Thank you all. I believe I misunderstood the Barista, I just recall being surprised at the frequency of grinding required. But it is interesting that the grinding process is my most prominent recollection. Either way, it was clearly very important to him, I just lacked a deep understanding.

                The item below is interesting (thanks Koffee Kosmo), however I suspect Coffee Snob members would have reservations about a combined unit.

                So it seems discussion is pointing me toward investing the money from my mother in to a good grinder first, and work on the actual coffee machine second. If I am understanding this correctly, I should spend the $500 on a grinder and purchase a stop gap espresso machine for under $100 until I can afford a good machine and the rest of the paraphenalia over time.

                Is my understanding correct?

                Then I can purchase roasted beans and focus on grinding these properly for each coffee.

                So in the mornings before work, how long (of attentive labour) should I schedule in for making my daily coffee with a grinder and good machine? Half an hour?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Where do I start??

                  So in the mornings before work, how long (of attentive labour) should I schedule in for making my daily coffee with a grinder and good machine? Half an hour?
                  When you get the full set up it will take 30+ minutes to warm up the machine (but can be put on a timer to turn on B/4 you wake up )
                  Allow 5 minutes or less including prep time to pull a shot
                  and another 5 or so minutes to clean up

                  The item below is interesting (thanks Koffee Kosmo), however I suspect Coffee Snob members would have reservations about a combined unit

                  It is also available as separate components
                  I was just thinking of your budget

                  So it seems discussion is pointing me toward investing the money from my mother in to a good grinder first, and work on the actual coffee machine second. If I am understanding this correctly, I should spend the $500 on a grinder and purchase a stop gap espresso machine for under $100 until I can afford a good machine and the rest of the paraphernalia over time
                  One can drink wonderful coffee from a Bodum Plunger or a Presso or an AeroPress
                  You can also find good Pre Loved espresso machines and grinders in the hardware for sale section

                  KK


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Where do I start??

                    what does this little beauty look like?

                    http://www.gaggia.com/macchine-da-caffe.asp?macchine-per-espresso-manuali_11_Achille

                    Fully manual it seems, just what I aspire to.

                    I am definitely tending toward a grinder now. Is a second hand espresso machine worth considering then? If its well look after. I suspect around $100 could pull something to start with second hand.

                    BTW I am in Canberra and go to Sydney often to visit family, around the Collaroy / North Sydney / Manly area - would love to take up the offer to see some artists in action some time.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Where do I start??

                      While in Sydney visit
                      Di Bartoli at Bondi Juction

                      Those manual machines are expensive

                      KK

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Where do I start??

                        all manual machines are expensive? This one seems to go for around $800 Australian

                        http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia-Achille-Manual-Espresso-Machine-P556.aspx

                        Either way, it really does seem I am not getting anywhere without a good grinder. So I can in fact get away with a stop gap espresso machine if I get a good grinder for now? And focus on getting a more permanent espresso machine down the track when I can afford it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Where do I start??

                          Benny
                          This is an American site so the price does not apply here in OZ

                          But if you get the chance visit Di Bartoli, have a play around with the machines, I am sure that if you introduce yourself as a Coffee Snob they will let you make a couple of shots of coffee

                          But the information you will get from them will be invaluable
                          You will walk away with information that will enable you to decide the best coffee path to take
                          And you will save money in the end by making an informed decision



                          KK


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Where do I start??

                            Hi Benny,

                            Its a while since I was researching the sub $200 market, but I dont think youre going to get even an OK espresso machine for $100 unless youre prepared to stalk the espresso machines category on ebay for weeks at least. For instance, the lower end 15 bar sunbeams are from $200+ new, around $70+ on ebay (I think, from memory) Not exactly wedding present territory, anyway.

                            So a couple of strategies:

                            1. Get a good grinder, at least good enough for the machine you hope to buy (next year ), plus an aeropress or plunger.

                            2. Let your Mum buy the espresso machine -- she will be happier, no-one really believes the grinder matters *that* much until they start immersing themselves in snob culture (or they find out the hard way : -- btw, did I miss the bit where you mentioned the budget?) and get the rest of the clan to chip in for the grinder. Hope youve got a large clan ;D

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Where do I start??

                              Welcome to CoffeeSnobs bennyhill..... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

                              Lots of good advice above from very passionate lovers of great coffee; but thats what were all about here at CS 8-). In order of importance, to have any hope of enjoying wonderful coffee, you need:

                              1) High quality, freshly roasted, whole coffee beans.... Consider them to be stale within 3-4 weeks if opened shortly after theyve been roasted. Always store coffee in Zip-Locked 1-Way Valve Bags in a cool, dark, dry and well ventilated posie..... N.B. Never store coffee in the fridge or freezer.

                              2) A high quality grinder, the best you can afford..... A decent grinder is way more important than the brewing method used and will outlast pretty well any coffee brewing system.

                              3) Only grind the amount of coffee needed immediately before brewing, regardless of brewing method used. Ground coffee starts to go stale immediately and is only good for throwing in the bin after 2-3 minutes.

                              4) Learn how to get the best from the Brewing System you start off with.... Most Brew methods are able to produce exceptional brews providing the operator knows what theyre doing and follows the advice in points 1, 2 & 3 above.

                              5) Finally, the Brewing System..... Theres a myriad of choices available these days, with espresso machines being but one and not necessarily the best. Which ever brew method you ultimately settle on, it will be the one that produces coffee exactly the way you like it 8-).

                              Hope this helps a bit....

                              All the best and enjoy the journey to great coffee, it will never end....

                              Cheers,
                              Mal.

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