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  • sojamcos
    commented on 's reply
    This has helped a lot with how I'm thinking about my search! So just wanted to drop a thanks for writing such a detailed, thought out response. Temperature surfing especially feels like such an art form the way I've seen it talked about but that analogy about it being like driving a car helps put it in perspective

  • coffeemachine
    replied
    Nice looking machine. You are in the price range to also Look at the Silvia pro which is a dual boiler PID machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6gxT-jdg_E


    There are some deals on the Eureka Specialita at the moment. That would be a great combo.

    Leave a comment:


  • JonnieFandango
    replied
    Started to look closely at the Lelit Mara X. Interested to hear from anyone who owns it and also what sort of grinder we should be considering.

    Leave a comment:


  • saeco_user
    commented on 's reply
    Just to clarify some of the terminology above: a "single boiler" and "PID" are not two different classes of machines. A single boiler can come with or without PID (as can double boilers).

  • TheBoneRanger
    replied
    I started my espresso adventure about a decade ago, after a trip to Italy.

    Came home, bought a used Gaggia Classic off of gumtree. Then bought a new Breville Smart grinder. And off I went.

    A decade later, the Breville is a little tired so is finally being replaced with something a little further up the food chain.

    There are so many great videos and tutorials about getting the best out of a setup similar to this. James Hoffman, Sprometheus, all pulling great shots with a machine you can buy used for a few hundred bucks.

    The world is your oyster for not much money. Then it’s all about technique and consistency.

    Leave a comment:


  • coffeemachine
    commented on 's reply
    tompoland yes it was a helpful article/video, I had no idea how to set the temp on my new PID machine, this helped so much. There are a couple of videos on saying you should set the temp to flash over boiling point, but I think that is way too hot. I have mine at 93C and that seems to work nicely for my darker roast.

    Here is Mr Hoffman covering puck prep. Outstanding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb3IxAr4RCo&t=1072s

    And to wrap it up, how to steam milk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE0krmQt5MY

    That should cover it nicely for any newcomer!

  • tompoland
    commented on 's reply
    Great article, thanks for posting. I liked the fact that they kept it to just the 3 variables and explained the purpose of each variable. That said, if a 4th point about how to avoid channelling by good puck preparation then it would be enough for a newcomer to newcomer to go a long way in creating great espresso.

  • coffeemachine
    replied
    Here are a few more thoughts about your options.

    Single boiler machines are of course lower cost, however require more effort to pull shots as you have to manage temperatures. This means you need to test what works and settle on a workflow that suits what you are drinking, this adds more complexity to learning your craft. Alternative Brewing did a great video on the Silvia explaining this.

    I should mention I did things the opposite way for my Silvia as explained in the AB video. For me it was espresso first, so turn on the steam on as I am about to pull the shot, pull the shot, wait a bit for the machine to come up to temp and then steam milk. It makes more sense to move higher in temp than try to lower the temp as there is hot metal involved and it hard to beat the laws of thermodynamics. Its like having a hot iron set for cotton shirts then waiting for it to cool so you can iron silk. I prefer the other way, start a lower temp for the silk then increase the temp for the cotton shirts. This is always up for debate.

    For reference espresso is extracted between 92-96 C and for milk steaming the temp of the boiler is pushed to 120-130 C to give you pressure to steam the milk. So with a single boiler you need to make sure you are at these temp ranges for these activities. You do this by bleeding the boiler and introducing cold water to reduce the temperature or turning on the steam switch to increase temperature. The Silvia single boiler has no temperature display so you need to figure this out by trial and error. It is not that hard to do in the beginning and just takes making a few drinks to get the workflow right. Once you have workflow right you are then away, rinse and repeat.

    So when you are learning with a new machine, the single boiler temperature surfing adds more complexity as you need to be controlling the temperature. It can be frustrating as you learn and develop your workflow. I will add you never stop developing your workflow, the changes you make over time get smaller and smaller as you chase marginal improvements. For example I never used to weigh my extracted espresso until a couple of years ago, that has made a huge difference for me. This is a journey that really does not end as you chase marginal improvements.

    With a PID machine, the machine does all the temperature control for you and you can just focus on grinding, tamping and extracting and not having to worry about temperatures. You set the temperature you want and that is it. So for my new machine, I spend a couple of days trying espresso at different temperatures and that was it. I would say that getting a machine with a PID temp controller will make things less complex and give you more control.

    Check out the article and video here from LM.
    https://home.lamarzoccousa.com/basic-espresso-theory/

    Its like cruise control in a car driving on the highway. A single boiler is a car without cruise control, you have to manage everything, a machine with PID is a car with adaptive cruise control, you just focus on steering the car, the car does the rest.

    Don’t be in a rush, take your time. It took me a good couple of months to settle on my new machine, and it was a brand that I did not know about (Profitec). Go to a few shops and check out the machines in person. Sometimes the build quality is different to what you see on a web page. I would also try to chat to anyone that has owned a Breville, and get some feedback from them. It is important to understand how these machines perform over time, as reliability is important for the long run. There is something to be said for keeping things simple. For example, I am not a fan of machines with LCD's, to me electronics and steam/water don't mix, that is just me, other people love them and want to tinker. It comes down to your requirements and what you like, there is no wrong answer.

    On paper the Breville/Rocky combo is a pretty good option, but I would still recommend single boiler or HX with PID and flat burr grinders. A good trick is to talk to someone at an espresso machine service company and ask them which machines they have the most problems with and which machines they have the least problems with from a service perspective (as opposed to what the sales person says). Or which machines are easy to get parts for and which are harder (you don’t wait to be waiting weeks for a part to turn up). Phone a couple of places and get their input. That trick works nicely for anything you buy!

    My Silvia/flat burr grinder combo lasted for 12 years, it was rock solid, and just needed regular maintenance, from a payback perspective it was really good. Everyone will have a slightly different point of view. As with everyone here, I am biased!

    Leave a comment:


  • coffeemachine
    commented on 's reply
    Keep us posted with what you do, or post again with your follow up questions. People here are very helpful.

  • JonnieFandango
    replied
    Originally posted by coffeemachine View Post
    Hope this helps.
    It most certainly does. Thanks so much! Really appreciate it.

    Leave a comment:


  • coffeemachine
    replied
    You will get lots of advice here, everyone is very helpful. This is a journey, and everyone has taken a different path so advice will vary, however we all agree it is about what is in the cup at the end of the day and we are looking for consistency and control. That is a big ask because in this game there are lots of variables. That is the challenge and that is what makes it interesting. Some people buy a single boiler machine and that is for life, others go on to spend thousands seeking the ultimate setup. It’s your journey and we all wish you the best, its loads of fun and very frustrating at the same time.

    The Silvia is a great machine, I had a Silvia single boiler as my first real espresso machine and it lasted 12 years. There will always be the thought of upgrading, but like Banjo said it depends how deep you want to go. If you think this is going to be a serious hobby then it may be a case of spend the cash up front to avoid the need to upgrade.

    I was in exactly your position when I started to make coffee at home, making 2-4 drinks a day max. The Breville dual boiler was not around then. I went with the Silvia and a 50mm flat burr grinder by Gaggia and this combo performed really well, and I was a newbie so it was a great fit. When I got this machine the steam power was overwhelming and I struggled to get decent espresso, but after a few weeks and some wasted coffee and milk I got there in the end. There are plenty of videos on you tube that will help with dialing in espresso and help you with learning how to steam milk. The first few weeks will be frustrating, keep at it you will improve quickly. As with anything, only change one thing at a time, and see how that improves things.

    I recently purchased a Profitec machine, ECM and Profitec are owned by they same parent company. Their quality and attention to detail is very high, and they are priced very well. I can recommend their machines as well as the Silvia.

    We are all looking for consistency and control, so a PID will give you that with your espresso extraction. Of course the best is a dual boiler with PID, which is why the Breville is popular, as it gives you the best of both worlds.

    Based on your use cases and also what others are saying, you have a few options for your new coffee machine.
    - Breville double boiler
    - Single boiler like the Silvia or ECM Casa V, ECM Classika PID
    - Heat Exchanger machine such as the Profitec 500 PID (this will be more expensive but will avoid the extra costs of upgrading)

    That is half the equation. You also need to think about the grinder. Niche is a good option, I am a flat burr grinder fan myself, so something like the Rancillo Rocky or Eureka Mignon line (I have the Specialita 55mm). Just go doserless, so you can grind straight into the portafilter.

    Don’t forget you will need things like a tamper, distribution tool, WDT tool as well. I stick with Pullman for my baskets and tamper (I have the big step, it is really good). I bought a generic distribution tool and WDT tool from Amazon.

    The nice thing about the Silvia is it has a 58mm portafilter so if you upgrade to a E61 machine you tamper still works. Breville has a 54mm portafilter, so wont fit in a E61 machine.

    If I were buying my first machine again, and I had limited budget I would go for a single boiler (take your pick of the 3 options I listed above) and would buy a flat burr grinder (the Rocky is great value). That is a great combination and low entry cost. I would splurge on Pullman Big Step tamper and baskets.

    If I could stretch the budget I would go for a Heat Exchanger machine with PID (like the Profitec 500 PID) and Eureka 55mm grinder.

    Hope this helps.

    Leave a comment:


  • saeco_user
    commented on 's reply
    There are too many variables involved when temp. surfing on a single boiler. What stage is the boiler at (just brewed, just steamed, first shot, second shot etc)? Where abouts in the heating cycle is it (it's quite a long on/off cycle)? Has the machine fully come to temp.? What is the ambient temp.? And possibly more factors I'm not thinking of.

    Yes, you can certainly become proficient at temp. surfing on a particular machine (many people do), but I found it quickly becomes tiresome.
    PID any day of the week.

  • JonnieFandango
    replied
    The whole PID thing fascinates me. I'm wondering whether for me it would take some of the fun away from experimentation or if it would actually make things *more* fun by letting me see exactly what temperature I'm making the coffee at, and how the quality changes as I make small, but quantifiable adjustments.

    I also like the idea of dialling in a shot and developing a routine, but maybe I'm kidding myself and I really do need an element of automation (so long as it doesn't remove all the fun).

    Leave a comment:


  • BanjoPaterson
    commented on 's reply
    I upgraded to the Silvia because it had a little more oomph in its steam, which was enough for my 3-4 cup milk pitcher. This was something the Gaggia was not good at.

    Both are good at espressos, but both are single boilers and without a temperature PID (proportional–integral–derivative) controller, much like cruise control, there can be fluctuations in brew temp that mess with consistency unless you develop a heating/cooling routine, colloquially known as temperature surfing, to hit the sweet spot for your style of beans. You can definitely get good flavours out of it, but it can be frustrating at first getting used to the process.

    For a few hundred dollars more, you can buy (from some of our site sponsors) Silvia's with a PID installed by the seller. It's not elegant, I think, but that will smooth out the temperature swings. I chose not to buy a PID for two reasons: the first is I enjoy trying to get a good routine down pat; and the second is I'm a cheapskate. If I wanted a machine with a PID, I'd opt for more expensive machines nearing the $2k mark.

    I find dark roasts on the Silvia are easier than light roasts. and I'm getting good texture, but not quite there yet with a spectrum of flavours. I still look at the tasting notes; taste my own espresso; and ponder. Mind you, I find the same for whiskeys where I struggle to find 'caramel notes' and such like.

    The Silvia's a good machine that rewards patience in 'dialling' in a shot and then developing a routine to get optimal temperatures. I like this workflow, but it means I get super bitter shots on occasion. Used to be more, but good scales (I use Ten Mile, which are OK); precision filter baskets (I use 18gm VST), and a good grinder will increase the number of good-to-excellent shots.

    Finally, both the Gaggia and Silvia have a thriving online community to help with modifications, tips and tricks; and I've found this resource helped/helps tremendously. I think both machines are good starting points to going on to level machines, more expensive E61 flow control or, if you're very interested in going down the Alice in Wonderland rabbit warren of coffee - the Decent and other like uber-control machines.

  • JonnieFandango
    replied
    This is great advice thanks, Banjo.

    I think both of us would love to develop our coffee skills and experiment a little bit - maybe even a lot. I think we're looking for a happy medium between something so sophisticated we'll never get close to fulfilling its potential and a machine so limited we end up wishing we'd stuck with going to the cafe every day. I know the options that sit between these extremes are many and varied, though.

    Can I ask how you find the Rancilio Silvia and how much it lets you play around with different variations? Do you find you get distinctly different flavours or just outright quality depending on your technique?

    Leave a comment:

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