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  • Please help, don't know next step

    Hi all,

    Can someone please help me as I'm out of ideas.

    I did a Barista Course last week and they used during the course, and it tasted great so I brought home a kilo of whole beans to use in my BDB. I also have an Eureka Specialita Grinder. Beans were roasted 2 weeks ago.

    My Espresso has none of the Blackberry or Chocolate notes I got in class and is bitter, so over extracted.

    My dose is 19g in 35g out in 20-21 secs, so fairly quick and I have dropped the temperature from 93 to 91. Pre-infusion is 5 secs.

    Suggestions on my next step would be appreciated.

    TIA
    Last edited by Javaphile; 24 July 2022, 03:39 PM. Reason: Commercial link removed

  • #2
    What’s you puck prep routine?

    try making a few shots - is your shot time and yield consistent?

    Comment


    • gregeeh
      gregeeh commented
      Editing a comment
      I'm grinding directly into the basket. Stop about halfway and give it a few taps to even it out, continue to fill the basket, tap it a few times on the bench to even it out and then tamp.

      Yes, it's all very consistent time after time.

  • #3
    Agree with above - suspicious that you are getting channelling and that explains bitter notes. Do you have a bottomless to get some visual clues? And are you using a proper WDT tool?

    Comment


    • gregeeh
      gregeeh commented
      Editing a comment
      Unfortunately no bottomless PF. Not using any tool as explained above, never have and never did in the class either. Used the same prep in the class as I do at home and it was perfect in the class.

    • Blues1143
      Blues1143 commented
      Editing a comment
      I presume in class they were using a multi thousand dollar commercial grinder though? Getting similar results from the Specialita (although a good home grinder) will likely require WDT and making sure you are tamping level (or using a self-levelling tamper)

  • #4
    It's unlikely to be the temperature and as level3ninja says, it's the last variable to play with.

    Roast date seems fine, temperature is fine, machines are quality so the culprit will probably be puck prep.

    To know what is happening with your pours and to consistently enjoy a delicious espresso a naked portafilter/basket is essential. So also is a puck rake. James Hoffman produced an excellent video on this https://youtu.be/xb3IxAr4RCo

    Comment


    • #5
      BTW gregeeh we can scratch our heads about them not using a puck rake or naked portafilter in the class but please bear in mind that a barista teaching a class has probably made thousands of espressos more than you or me and like anything else, under the watchful eyes of someone so experienced you'll likely make better coffee than at home, puck rake or not.

      Also barista classes are normally run as an extension of a commercial context such as a busy and successful cafe: top notch espresso machine, grinder, barista all combining to pump espressos out very quickly. And that commercial context doesn't allow the time to be fastidious about puck prep e.g. use of a puck rake. At home, we have the luxury of being able to take more care and as a result, many of us find that we can enjoy coffee that's to our liking far more consistently than we can in even a well run cafe.

      Finally, in a cafe well over 90% of customers have milk with their espresso and that can hide a lot of defects.

      Hope that helps you to feel like getting a naked basket and a puck rake is worth it, because they are essential tools for a home barista.

      Comment


      • gregeeh
        gregeeh commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks tompoland for you thoughts. I have ordered a puck rake, naked PF and a dosing funnel. So let's hope for some improvement.

      • tompoland
        tompoland commented
        Editing a comment
        Fantastic. Truth be told, these are a better investment in quality espresso than buying the most expensive espresso machine.

        I remember one poor guy in the Decent forum asking "what gives? I bought a Decent cos I read it makes the best espesso but it tastes like dishwater". Turns out it was his first coffee machine of any description and he simply expected to turn it on and have amazing espresso pour out.

        Probably should have bought an Aldi pod machine and saved himself US$4,910.

    • #6
      Thanks everyone for you input, it's appreciated. So the consensus seems to be my puck prep, so I will need to rule that out. As I don't have a WDT or puck rack at present is there something I can do to test if it is the puck prep. If it turns out to be puck prep I will purchase a WDT.

      Comment


      • coffeemachine
        coffeemachine commented
        Editing a comment
        This may help. You can do the parts of the process that suit and you have tools for then extend your workflow later.

        You can make a cheep WDT tool with a cork and some fine sewing needles. The aim is to break up clumps not move the coffee around.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb3I...vxnp9&index=27

    • #7
      Do you know what grinder was being used at the Barista course? If it was a big conical burr grinder (compared with you flat burr grinder) it may possibly explain some of the taste differences you are noticing. Might also be worth trying a longer, gentler pre-infusion. This may help reduce channeling, if it is the culprit.

      Comment


      • #8
        I'm guessing your water is ok? It makes up a large proportion of an espresso.

        Comment


        • gregeeh
          gregeeh commented
          Editing a comment
          The water goes thru a 1 micron pre-filter and then the Omb-934-1m Omnipure Coconut filter.
          Last edited by Javaphile; 25 July 2022, 06:13 PM. Reason: Removed commercial link

      • #9
        Here are a some puck prep tips that I did when focusing V on this -

        Keep a log of your coffee for a free months: coffee, dose, yield, time, grind setting and any visual clues, and anything else you can record. If variables remain the same then you want these to be consistent.

        do wdt - you can do this with a toothpick. I use a cork and 4 acupuncture needles.

        get a leveling tamper to remove this as a variable.

        Comment


        • #10
          Originally posted by saeco_user View Post
          Do you know what grinder was being used at the Barista course? If it was a big conical burr grinder (compared with you flat burr grinder) it may possibly explain some of the taste differences you are noticing. Might also be worth trying a longer, gentler pre-infusion. This may help reduce channeling, if it is the culprit.
          This is the grinder I used in the class.

          Plus I just remembered we also used dosing cups like this one. We would just up end the cup into the basket and if it was level just tamp, if not use you finger to make it level then tamp.

          Comment


          • saeco_user
            saeco_user commented
            Editing a comment
            Grinder is a flat burr like yours. Grinding into a cup and maybe breaking up any lumps with a toothpick should give you a pretty close representation to what you were doing on the course. Did you also do any tasting of the beans with a plunger or aeorpress? If so, it may be worth trying with your beans at home as well to see how well the taste matches up

        • #11
          Couple of thoughts from me, hopefully they don't confuse things.

          Usually when you have beans with fruity notes e.g. Blackberry they like a longer extraction, I would target at least 30 seconds post pre-infusion (so make the grind finer). I would also consider increasing yield maybe 19 grams in 40-45mls out. Again if you beans have fruity note they are probably medium roasted and likely have an Ethiopian or Kenyan bean in there. In my experience a fine grind and longish extraction will be need to bring out the flavours.

          Comment


          • gregeeh
            gregeeh commented
            Editing a comment
            Is this what you really mean " 19 grams in 40-45mls out."? Usually in and out are in grams.
            Also, in what time frame?

            Coffee I'm using is:
            https://coffeesnobs.com.au/forum/equ...288#post922288

          • roosterben
            roosterben commented
            Editing a comment
            Oops sorry yeah I mean 40-45 grams out.

            Your bean recipe for double shot refers to 21-22 grams in with 60 grams out in 30-35 seconds. Most if these recipes don't account for pre-infusion as most commercial machines don't have it. In my opinion 60 grams out is a bit too much for a 30-35 second extraction. But you could try a few recipes 30 seconds (post pre-infusion) 40 grams out, using your grind adjustment to hit this target, taste it then try again, maybe 35 seconds 45 grams out. These two you can probably hit with about the same grind assuming roughly 1 gram per second flow. Taste each and see if you are getting closer to the flavour you got on the course.

            Challenge is there are so many variables you want to change as few as possible at a time. This is not even thinking about group head water temperature, brew pressure, brew water, there are only so many you have access to depending on your machine.

          • gregeeh
            gregeeh commented
            Editing a comment
            "Your bean recipe for double shot refers to 21-22 grams in with 60 grams out in 30-35 seconds." If you look closer it's 60mL out, not 60 grams which is very confusing. Seems the recipes for all there beans are grams in mL out.

        • #12
          Originally posted by roosterben View Post
          Couple of thoughts from me, hopefully they don't confuse things.

          Usually when you have beans with fruity notes e.g. Blackberry they like a longer extraction, I would target at least 30 seconds post pre-infusion (so make the grind finer). I would also consider increasing yield maybe 19 grams in 40-45mls out. Again if you beans have fruity note they are probably medium roasted and likely have an Ethiopian or Kenyan bean in there. In my experience a fine grind and longish extraction will be need to bring out the flavours.
          Here are the coffee beans I'm using if it helps.

          Click image for larger version

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          Comment


          • #13
            Just a thought.
            Have you contacted the cafe/roastery that you took the course at and asked them?

            Comment


            • #14
              Hello Everyone,

              I think it's time for an update and a quick summary, but first off thank you everyone for your time, comments and input as it has been really appreciated.

              To recap this is what I started with "My dose is 19g in 35g out in 20-21 secs, so fairly quick and I have dropped the temperature from 93 to 91. Pre-infusion is 5 secs." and it was bitter and none of the Chocolate and Blackberry notes I got in class. The consensus was it was my puck prep so I got a cork and a few thin sewing needles and low and behold my bitterness disappeared and my pump pressure was more consistent, not dropping away as the extraction progressed, like it was before. However I was left with a non sour "flat" boring result with none of the Chocolate and Blackberry notes.

              This was enough to convince me to purchase a puck rake, dosing funnel and a naked PF. I'm presently waiting on them to arrive, probably next week.

              i the meantime I'm leaving what I have alone and not changing anything until my order arrives so I can do better puck prep and think about what my next step should be.

              Once again a big thank you to all.

              Greg

              Comment


              • #15
                Hi gregeeh

                Thanks for getting back to us.... much appreciated.

                I think you will be happy with all three of those gadgets, although I am still a sucker for corks and needles.

                Speaking specifically of the BES920 now, keep an eye on your shot pressure. When new my Bdb had its OPV set at 10.5-11 bar ( using blind basket but also showing as the ramp up pressure after pre-infusion). That pressure isn't good for pucks and probably isn't good for taste either. (saeco was saying the same thing) My work around (whilst under warranty) was to use the pre-infusion to throttle down the whole shot ( so in my case setting preinfusion to 80% for 50 seconds) and resulted in the whole shot peaking just under 9 bar. (OPV resetting isn't hard if you want to get back to a more traditional use of pre-infusion- )
                Again - don't get too discouraged if you can't totally replicate a cafe signature blend etc - there are plenty of beans out there that a BDB / Specialta will do a great job with.

                After you have your new recipe set ( 19gm in 35 gms out etc etc ) - don't be afraid to cut one or two as short shots - (ristretto) - the tail of the shot carries a bit more bitterness - so if you are still chasing a Sweeter shot in the cup - lose the tail - maybe 5 seconds shorter - or look at your scales. Good luck

                Comment


                • gregeeh
                  gregeeh commented
                  Editing a comment
                  @FNG - Thanks for your comments, but do you really mean "so in my case setting preinfusion to 80% for 50 seconds". 50 seconds is a really long time?

                  As for the OPV I have installed a Brass OPV and and set it to 11 bar. Constantly getting 7 bar with my present settings.

                • FNQ
                  FNQ commented
                  Editing a comment
                  hi gregeeh

                  I personally wouldn't want my OPV set above 10 - and probably when i get around to it will settle for 9.75 or 9.5 ish - in the hope that it ( the pressure gauge) translates to about 9 at the puck .

                  In my workaround, i am in effect deleting the pre-infusion and instead throttling back my whole shot pressure to 80% of 11 which is 8.8 bar. So in my case the pump only switches to 80% and stays there until my arbitrary finish point (i picked 50 seconds- as it is long enough after my aimed point of say 30-32 seconds)

                  If you have 11 bar but your puck pressure in the pour is only 7, then a traditional(ist) type response is grind finer. (my example below 2 paragraphs, ...shows less pressure degradation at the puck)

                  *** Plenty of other people more qualified to respond here , but if you are trying to get initial consistency then extraction at about 9 bar is a good allround starting point.... there are lots of others who are into profiling their shots and so 7 bar ( or even a bit lower) isn't bad at all - look up slayer mod on Home barista forum for BDB if interested) BUT my feedback for a newish user on a BDB is stick to about 9 bar with the rest of your fairly proven recipe ( to start with ) , after you have nutted out consistency then down the rabbit hole you may go!!!!!

                  In my example my pressure starts at 0 climbs to about 6-7 at 8 seconds when i see first drips, then just after that hits the OPV X 80% ( and I extract at 8.8 bar trailing away to maybe 8 or a a tiny bit less by the end ( not disintegrating rapidly) I only use manual button and shut down at just under 1:2 ratio ( 18 gms in 33-34 gms out in about 25- 35 seconds) So it is a full shot not pre-infusion at all.

                  For you , I would suggest tweaking down the OPV about one turn ( I am jealous of your brass one) , I haven't opened my BES920 up yet I didn't want to mess around and maybe kill my warranty, and I will be getting some o rings replaced and ceramic washers at ball valve flipped by the repair agent ( shortly) at approx 20 month mark of ownership

                  Late edit: you made me go and have an afternoon coffee, just so i could double check the figures I quoted for my operation,,,, and Yes all about right and it was delicious thank you.
                  Last edited by FNQ; 26 July 2022, 04:31 PM. Reason: Edit : checking figures

                • gregeeh
                  gregeeh commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Hi FNQ,

                  First off thanks for that great explanation, I now understand your workaround.

                  My last comment had a mistake, I've set my OPV at 10 bar and not 11 bar. Don't know what I was thinking.

                  You say, and others too, I should grind finer which will increase my pressure while keeping the out weight and extraction time the same. I agree 100% but doing so previously made the shot very bitter. Maybe things will improve when my new "gadgets" arrive

                  Regarding your BDB maintenance. I've had two BDB's in the last 10 years and the boiler O-Rings really need replacing every 2 years. Plus I would not bother with the ceramic washers in the ball value at all as the stainless steel gate in the valve gets pitted so no amount of new washers will fix it. Save yourself some trouble and just replace the whole valve once it starts leaking. Mine lasted 3-4 years.

                  Once again, many thanks for your input.

                  Greg
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