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Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

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  • Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

    Ive owned a Sunbeam EM6910 and matching EM0480 grinder for about 3 months now. Im still yet to get a decent cup of coffee out of them. Now before I go any further I accept this could (more than likely) be me doing the wrong thing. Ive read a million things on the net with anything to do with brewing the perfect shot, etc. Ive watched the DVD from Paul Bassett that came with it, Ive done everything short of going on a baristas course. Im yet to attend the free course that comes with the 6910. I accept this could be my downfall but I want to check one thing first.

    Ive seen a great shot on youtube from cremaman http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=88-Lk4I7jbI

    In that video, the extraction is like a syrup and that beautiful crema I would just die for. He gets like 90% crema after the pour, too much most would say, thats fine but I would just like to be able to mimmick something like those results. The best crema Ive ever had is maybe 2%. Ive tried different beans from Segafredo, Gloria Jeans, Coffee Club, etc. (all fresh). Ive gone through a ton of beans experimenting with different grind settings. Nothing.

    I know you all have better things to do then listen to another noob trying to perfect the pour. I am just at my wits end with what soon maybe an expensive bookend. Can someone give me their details with the coffee beans, the grind setting (EM0480), everything to do with the pour, just so I can get a decent crema and at least I can eliminate the machine as the problem. Im beginning to think it doesnt producee the pressure its suppose to have.
    If I can at least eliminate the machine then I can work on me with getting that course done. I need to have confidence in the machine which I am lacking at the moment.

    Thanks,
    Dave
    Narrabeen - NSW.

  • #2
    Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

    Hi Dave, a couple of questions first.  You will notice from the link that you pointed to above, that the extraction pour took approx 20secs from first drop.

    From previous research into this matter, I believe that general consensus is the pour should be somewhere between 20-30 secs (some may indicate a smaller window than that ?).  How long is yours taking ?

    From your description of 2% crema, Im guessing that you are taking less than 20 secs ? (Yes / No).

    If so, your grind may be too coarse, or your tamp too soft.

    But then again, I could be full of crap :-)

    P.S. My EM0480 is set to 14 (but that doesnt mean that yours should be the same).

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

      Dave,

      Welcome to CS.

      The first thing that jumps out at me from your post is the list of fresh beans you have used.

      I seriously doubt that Segafredo or Gloria Jeans are going to be fresh. I would hazard a guess that the same could be true of Coffee Club.

      When you say fresh, do you KNOW that they were roasted no more than 2 weeks before you purchased them? If you cannot be sure of the roasted date (NOT the best before), then this will likely be 95% of your problem.

      If you dont know when they were roasted, then I strongly suggest getting some roasted beans from either here or one of the sponsors that sells them. See links on the left.

      If they are indeed fresh beans youre using, then we will commence the barrage of questions to see if we can help out!

      Brett.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

        Welcome to Coffee Snobs Dave.

        What makes you so sure all those beans were fresh?

        EDIT: snap Brett.

        P.S. Dave where are you?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

          Welcome Dave..hmm...doubt those beans you mentioned are really fresh. Definitely get yourself to the free course - Im sure it will be invaluable to you.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

            Dave,

            Out of curiosity...how long does it take to extract a single shot (25~30mL)?

            There are probably a lot more experienced CSers than me, but if you can try to nail one thing at a time; a consistent and flat tamp (forget the right weight...18kg?), a grind that gives you 25~30mL in about 20~25 seconds. Try and stick the the same beans before you change. Find something you like and stick with them until you get it sorted out.

            There are so many variables! Consistency is the key.

            Ive had my EM6910 for about the same time. Did a course prior to buying...worth every cent. Will do the Sunbeam course when I get around to arranging it.

            Cant help wih the EM0480 as I went the slightly more $$$ route and bought a Mini Mazzer. Very happy with it. Lots use the EM0480 so advice shouldnt be far away.

            Your hard work will pay off!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

              Hi dhepburn,

              As a fellow noob perhaps I can offer some advise. Im also having problems but have had some degree of success. I realise this is the blind leading the blind.

              Firstly, you know, from the video that the kind of shots youre wanting are attainable, and I can tell you from experience they are. Mostly mine tend to be disappointments, but I have made some shots that were just wonderful. 80% crema, guinness effect, good body etc.

              Secondly, attend the course, its well worth it and the instructors will stand there and watch your technique. The instant feedback is really what you need.

              On the home barista website (google home barista) under the howtos there is an article diagnosing espresso extraction problems. Have a read of it if youve not already.

              After Ive pulled a shot, and watched it like an eagle, I always pull the PF out and have a look at the puck. It should be dry with no holes in it and have a slight indentation of the showerhead screw right in the centre. Thats my aim each time. If I dont get that (often I have wormholes which indicate channeling, or a wet mushy puck) then I know that somethings gone wrong.

              Ive also, just today, tried to rule out all variables in the process. So, Ive pulled the bathroom scales out and I tamp on that so I can consistently get 15kg. Im also grinding into the canister that came with the grinder. I then pour it into the PF and level off with a small plastic ruler so I can fill in any holes. This hopefully is preventing the channeling I mentioned. I also make sure I tamp and polish the same each time. Ill be able to tell in a few days if this has fixed my issues.

              Lastly, I know you said your beans are fresh, but I would suggest choosing a small local roaster, and for now, only buy the one blend. Using a different blend, even the age of that blend will change your variables, as Ive just found out. Make sure your beans come with a roast date on the pack.

              Pulling a good shot is like balancing a plate on a stick. Im sure its easy once you get the hang of it. Good luck, let us know how you go.

              -ACog

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

                1:  FRESH beans...  Not from a supermarket or local Coffee shop, until you know what to expect..
                2:  Single or double PF basket.   Ignore the single spout on the Video... Bet  ya any thing it was the double basket.
                3:  Do not use the double floor baskets... Single floor... Have a look and you should see lots of daylight almost lake a gause.
                4: Grinder...  Ummmm  The setting will be different for every one and is also related to the BEANS and which day the grinder was made......  Somewhere between 10 and 20, but should be about 15... Should be.

                5: Do the SB course

                6: Do not over tamp - 20 - 30 lb or about  10 - 15 kg is not that heavy...  Put the PF on a bathroom scale and try it... You will be enlightened....

                7: Count the time, watch the gauge, watch the flow (thick, oily or runny) and the colour (also at what stage the consistency and colour changes)...  They all mean something when looked at together.  Separately, they mean little.

                8:  So where are you ?  

                Sometimes a 15min guidance by an experienced person is all you need.  Remember most CSs people have done teh hard yards and have travelled the same roads...  Sit back and enjoy the ride..  NO air bags needed.  Frustration is always a problem, but it will not kill you like a lamp post.

                Let us know how you go.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

                  Well thanks for your help guys - wasnt expecting responses so soon!

                  ok, let me answer these...

                  Im getting the 30ml in 30 seconds pour happening. The pour is a liquidy stream rather than a syruppy stream I see on the video mentioned (and others). Its basically dirty water rather than liquid gold!

                  Ive tried many different grinds, lately have found midway point on the range available on the EM0480 that being setting 16 (of the 30 available). Dont have a measure of the tamp Im giving but Im putting a decent weight into it with a 180 degree twist at the end. This has produced the most constant pour stream.

                  Realise the beans wont be as fresh as the local roasters. I actually bought the Segafredo from my local cafe that jsut produces the best cappa Ive ever had. Im trying to emulate that coffee at home - now I realise I only have a $600 machine whereas they have probably a $7,000 machine, but I should get reasonably close - right? Im not even close. Ive taken measurements of their pour, etc still didnt help.

                  Like you say, there are so many variables. Right now I just want to be confident the machine is preducing the 15 bar of pressure that its suppose to be.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

                    AM
                    I dont use the double-floor baskets
                    Started with double basket at first but was getting no where with those so switched to the single basket of late
                    Will look into the bathroom scales idea - sounds sensible!
                    FRESH beans - I hear you. Id expect my cafe to have fresh beans, I bought an unopened pack off his stock which he uses day to day so I know theyd be at least as fresh as the ones he uses. Again, I know the $7,000 machine is going to do more than my pocket rocket.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

                      Im an EM 6910/EM0450 owner, and let me preface my remarks by saying:

                      a) Im stunned by the quality of the output, as is anyone whos tried my efforts. Even "she who must be obeyed"  who is a lifelong tea drinker/coffee hater now actually requests 3 or 4 lattes a day.

                      b) Im a pedantic SOB, with half a lifetime experience in training and machinery usage, so please excuse me if I waffle on.

                      In answer to the OP:

                      To get a "perfect" outcome (i.e. 30mls in 30 seconds, good crema and excellent, sweet, no bitterness  taste) using Mocha beans roasted locally within 7 days, my settings are:

                      20 (measured)grams in the basket using a fill/3 taps on the bumper box/light tamp - times 3 then a final fill/scrape/15kg tamp with an Espro tamper.

                      The EM0450 is set on "5" or "6" depending on time of day/humidity etc, the espresso thermoblock temp altered from standard to +4°C and the plastic portafilter insert removed.

                      Similarly, with fresh locally roasted "Voodoo Sax" blend the process is the same, but using only a measured ground 18gms and the grinder set on 6.

                      Previously, a locally roasted "Ethiopian" blend required the same procedure with a measured 19gms ground weight to produce a similar outcome.

                      Being the pedant I am, I must admit it took me around 1250 grams of beans practise before I came close to being satisfied I was even "in the ballpark"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

                        dont stress too much until you know you have fresh beans. you will get very little crema from stale beans. I would say most of the coffee shops near me use stale beans. You can order beans online from the "buy brown" link up the top left of the screen.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

                          Welcome friend. I have an Italian mate who raved about Segafredo...until he tasted my home roasted beans. The fact is that Segafredo is imported and is usually stale. As such when you get your home set up right you wont be buying coffee again at your fav coffee shop. Having said that, using a commercial grinder and commercial machine, you can tweak things so that the coffee comes out somewhat better than your set up, assuming you are using identical beans, but really most of it is the beans, then the grinder with person on the machine/grinder at the same level, and machine after that in my opinion.

                          You need fresh beans. By that I mean local roaster/Andys roast bought online here/ roast your own green beans which is not hard and inexpensive to do (cheaper than roasted by quite a margin - get your greens here, because they never fail to be excellent quality).

                          Tell us where you live and we can all then give you input into a good local roaster if you dont yet wish to purchase on line.

                          I can tell you that I get syrupy pours from my EM6910 every day using fresh beans. My commercial machine is more forgiving to grind/tamp/dose variances than my EM and but the EM is capable of consistent excellent looking pours with fresh beans. DONT GIVE UP!!

                          Cheers

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

                            Hi Dave, freshly roasted beans from a reliable outlet should set you on the right path.
                            My son has a 6910 and he is not very pedantic about his coffee technique, but he produces a respectable cup consistently using my home roasted beans.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Frustrated as hell!  EM6910 crema

                              Fresh beans indeed are a must.

                              Cremaman seems to use mostly the single basket from what I can tell in his videos (and I think that one you linked to is with an old "solis" grinder that he had modded, not the EM0480 as per some of his newer vids). I also studied his videos lots when I got my machine as we dont get offered the sunbeam course in NZ, nor was there a DVD in the box with my machine.

                              I find the syrupy pours are more easily achieved with an overdosed basket and slightly coarser grind.

                              If you are using the sunbeam tamper, aim to have about 1/2 of the steel piece above the rim of the PF when your PF is ready to go into the machine.

                              My current dosing method is to grind directly into the PF. I grind for a bit, then tap twice on the base of the grinder, grind some more until it looks full, then tap again on the base, then grind again until there is a small mound above the PF. Using a NSEW movment with the tamper, compact this down, then tamp once with what ever weight it is I use (have no idea how much pressure). This leaves about 1/2 the steel part of the tamper exposed. Its not a particularly scientific (or measured) way of dosing, but I can get it reasonably consistent. Lock / load the PF and press fire.

                              Needle on the gauge gets into mid brown, almost red and it works well for a 50ml from 25 - 30 sec double for me.

                              Good luck, but make sure your beans are fresh first and foremost

                              Sen

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