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  • silvia vs imat mokita

    Hi there Coffee Snobs Just came across this site the other night.

    Anyhow, it is approaching time for me to purchase a new machine, as my old breville $100 jobbie finally gave and joined the Big Bean Posse.

    After a bit of research, I have come down to the rancilio silvia and imat mokita.

    Now, I only have a $50 sunbeam grinder, SO....

    Do I get the Silvia and put up with inconsistant grinds from my grinder or get my local roaster to grind for me until i can afford a rocky or something,

    or...

    do i save $250 or so and get a mokita, or even spend a bit more and get the version of the mokita with the grinder built in?? This is around the same money as the silvia.

    Also, what is this i hear about a wait time between pouring coffee and frothing milk with the silvia? Is the mokita the same? Even my breville didnt have that problem! What sort of wait time is there? And is it tru the silvia wont fit a latte cup under the group head? Will the mokita? are there any machines that do fit a cup or decent sized mug?


    Thanks for the help guys

  • #2
    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

    Hi Azenis,

    The Imat is a good machine, but I guess it depends what you are looking for.  Look at Alan Frews comparison of the two machines and their construction; I think the Silvia boasts a better internal construction (boiler, plumbing etc).

    I looked at the Imat when I was shopping around...it has the normal Italian quality control; lots of sharp edges...(the Silvia has them too!)..but you can pull a decent shot from it.

    The pause you talk about with the Silvia is known as `temperature surfing.  Do a search on this, and you will find many opinions....for me, I just pull the shot when the temp light goes out, so maybe I am not getting the optimum extraction  :-/  But I like it   :

    As far as the Combi goes, I personally would keep saving a while to get a better grinder.  Having the bean hopper right next to the boiler tends to hasten the beans staling process..they get too hot.  :-/

    If you have your heart set on a Silvia, make sure you shop around a bit...the prices vary considerably..

    Happy espresso adventures....

    Cheers,

    Chris

    P.S. - Yep you are right...you cant get a tall mug under the Silvia...or a big jug under the steam wand come to that...but you live with that - they are a very nice machine!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: silvia vs imat mokita

      Originally posted by stratford link=1130108140/0#1 date=1130111596
      it has the normal Italian quality control

      Hmm now is that a good thing or a bad thing? If we were talking about cars, it would be a bad thing indeed...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: silvia vs imat mokita

        Are there any other recommended alternatives?

        As for shopping around , i wil lhave to get it off the net or order one in as here in Hobart it seems impossible to get anything decent locally...


        Originally posted by stratford link=1130108140/0#1 date=1130111596
        Hi Azenis,

        The Imat is a good machine, but I guess it depends what you are looking for.  Look at Alan Frews comparison of the two machines and their construction; I think the Silvia boasts a better internal construction (boiler, plumbing etc).

        I looked at the Imat when I was shopping around...it has the normal Italian quality control; lots of sharp edges...(the Silvia has them too!)..but you can pull a decent shot from it.

        The pause you talk about with the Silvia is known as `temperature surfing.  Do a search on this, and you will find many opinions....for me, I just pull the shot when the temp light goes out, so maybe I am not getting the optimum extraction  :-/  But I like it   :

        As far as the Combi goes, I personally would keep saving a while to get a better grinder.  Having the bean hopper right next to the boiler tends to hasten the beans staling process..they get too hot.  :-/

        If you have your heart set on a Silvia, make sure you shop around a bit...the prices vary considerably..

        Happy espresso adventures....

        Cheers,

        Chris

        P.S. - Yep you are right...you cant get a tall mug under the Silvia...or a big jug under the steam wand come to that...but you live with that - they are a very nice machine!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: silvia vs imat mokita

          The wait between espresso and steaming is common with all single-boiler machines because the water has to be raised to boiling point to produce steam.

          Its no big deal or big wait.... as soon as the extraction is complete, flip on the steam switch, and by the time you empty the puck, go to the fridge, decant the milk into a pitcher, wet the cloth in preparation to wipe the steam wand.... its time to steam.

          Cappuccino cups will fit under the Silvia portafilter, but latte glasses will not unless they are tilted. The distance is kept short to prevent the coffee air cooling as it drops from portafilter spout to cup.

          I havent noticed any sharp edges on the Silvia. It is of streamlined design, which renders it somewhat boring but functional. The Silvia is a heavier, better heat-retaining machine than the Mokita. Lots of heavy brass to prevent heat loss.

          The $50 grinder wont do you any favours, and if it came down to that, youre better off getting the combo unit with inbuilt grinder.

          Robusto

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: silvia vs imat mokita

            I dont know about the Sylvia, because I dont have one, but my Mokita takes 38 seconds to heat from brewing temp. to steaming temp. I just timed it. That is also the exact time it takes me to fart around and find the jug and the milk.

            The other issue raised with the Combi was the beans in the hopper being heated by the boiler sitting next to it. This isnt really an issue for me because I keep the beans in an airtight container and just pour in enough for the session.

            The distance between the very tip of the spout and the drip tray on my mokita is 90mm. Height of an 8oz Duralax latte glass is 90mm.

            The only sharp edge of note is on a small bit that sticks out to hold the lid on the top over the water reservoir. The only time it is an issue is when you want to take the water tank out. Since I fill it with a jug and funnel that occurs close to never.

            Im a big fan of my Mokita Combi. When I do the right things it produces fantastic espressos, when I do the wrong thing I know about it straight away. It also fitted my budget for a machine and grinder nicely.

            Luke

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: silvia vs imat mokita

              Thanks guys
              So the Silvia really cant be beaten for the price?? Guess I will keep saving and suviving on plunger coffee until then then...

              Can anyone recommend a good place to buy from?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: silvia vs imat mokita

                Ive currently got a mokita combo (mine is labeled napoletana but its the same beast) and previously had a Silvia and mazzer.

                My experiences:  same size boiler so steaming is identical. The mokita has good heat retention but the lighter group and portafilter takes a little more care to get near to a god shot. sparky profiled mine and it was all over the place till I worked out a regime which stabilised the temp

                Grinder, it does the job, its not a mazzer or cimbali but for the $ it represents good value, its also allows very fine adjustments due to the worm drive which the stand alone lux doesnt utilise. if you keep a lot of beans in the hopper then heat from the boiler may be an issue but if you only add what youll need to grind then that will never be a problem, additionally as its doserless you dont have to worry about stale grinds. It is noisy though.

                maximum cup height, fits standard cappucino cups and but for a tall latte glass you may need to remove the drip tray

                Sharp edges, no problems that Ive noticed, its certainly nothing like slice and dice pc cases

                Both are nice simple machines with easily accessible and relatively cheap parts.

                In the end comes down to the $, the mokita will do the job but pay more and youll get more. Is a  rocky silvia combo  worth an extra $500 or whatever is going to be down to personal criteria.

                btw if you really want to save some money Im about to sell my second hand napoletana  as Ive replaced it a  with a hx unit and commecial grinder

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: silvia vs imat mokita

                  Well, I know there are a few folk who deal with them here....maybe you could enquire with them.

                  I bought mine from Mocopan...they had the best price around, their after sales is good, and they give you a kilo of two of their best, so you can run it through the machine and develop your technique. That way, you dont waste your own fresh beans...They also had a good price on the Rocky...

                  I guess they could ship one down to the penal settlement

                  Cheers...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: silvia vs imat mokita

                    If you not doing a side by side comparison and you have a budget to stick to, the Imat is a fine machine. I have owned both and I can say that the Silvia has a more robust feel, being heavier. Both will need a decent grinder though.....

                    The drip tray of the Silvia is pretty sharp and can cut. It is also very shallow compared to the Imat. The Imat has a window to check on the water level that Silvia has yet to put in. Need to dry out the Silvia around the water tray or rust will form on the iron frame (just like their cars)

                    You get stronger steam from the Silvia.

                    Oh, coffee mugs fit under the Imat and not the Silvia.

                    Cheers

                    franjae

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: silvia vs imat mokita

                      Ill add a few more impressions. I owned a Silvia for all of one weekend. During that time I ran quite a few shots, comparing it to my Gaggia Classic. I found that I hated the Silvias shallow drip tray. I also didnt like the large hex nut that holds the shower screen on. The wait till steaming is about 40 -50 sec and you have to bleed the steam wand at least once, but preferably twice before you get nice dry steam. The temperature stability of the Silvia is not all that it is cracked up to be. While it can produce great shots, you really have to learn how to drive it first. It is considered a very fussy machine, but also a very capable one. Ultimatey a Silvia can be made to behave and will reward the user with great coffee.

                      On the other hand, the Classic is far easier to operate in a regime that produces reasonable shots. While it also isnt too temperature stable during the shot, it will be hard to taste it in the cup. I mention the Classic, as it supposedly produces shots identical to the Mokita according to Alan Frew, so serves as a reasonable substitute comaprison.

                      The bottom line is that the Classic could produce a better shot than I could manage from the Silvia, even after finding the temperature sweet spot after logging it for 20-30 shots. If I hadnt have done that I might never have found the sweet spot. On the contrary, Alan Frew believes the Silvia edges out both the Classic and Mokita in shot quality, so that represents the ultimate performance that can be expected from this machine.

                      A lot of the Classics superiority during the test came from the pressure tweak Id performed to lower the brew pressure to around 9 bar for ristretto and single shots. That results in thick creamy shots with amasing mouth-feel. On the other hand, the Silvia brews at about 12 bar for singles and ristrettos, which results in thinner, less creamy shots. So it was a bit like comparing apples to oranges.

                      IMO the Silvia wasnt a sufficient improvement over the Gaggia Classic to warrant me keeping it. It does steam like a demon, which is great for milk drinks. It just takes 40-50 sec to build up sufficient steam pressure (which would be about the same time for the Mokita). Also the Silvia will be virtually useless without a decent grinder. A Mokita and Grinder would probably be immediately more satisfying.

                      There are so many plusses and minuses for both machines. The Silvia has the highest quality construction and uses a commercial portafilter etc. Alan Frew discusses all these points at length. Have a read and have a think.

                      Theres also a few more Mokita owners on this forum that might like to chime in on how they like their machine (Mal?).

                      If you live in Hobart, then you can get great freshly roasted beans from Oomph coffee. Carlos is also a coffeegeek and will talk for hours about coffee, if you wish to chat.

                      Good luck with the decision.

                      regards,

                      Mark.


                      PS: My Classic has produced a shot that could only be one tiny step from the coveted "God shot". Im still trying to find a machine that can reproduce such an amasing espresso.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: silvia vs imat mokita

                        First up,

                        DONT SKIMP ON THE GRINDER

                        Seriously. I cant emphasise this enough.

                        Id either go for the cheapest passable one (iberital challenge) or an absolutely awesome one that will last for ever (La Cimbali Jnr or Max, Mazzer whatever, NS MCF).

                        In terms of machines, I think that the single boiler machines all pretty much suck in different ways :P

                        Like Mark said, one way in which they all suck is pressure regulation, which is usually pretty much none. My Silvia is unmodified and, now that I dont get to play with a commercial machine for half of my coffees, Im really, really sick of it. It goes under the knife after the end of the exams.

                        The construction of the mokita impressed me, but the 57mm portafilter is difficult to understand ... why wouldnt you just manufacture it with a standard (58mm) part? This means that you cant swap in any commercial filter that you desire. For example, Im currently using the standard, ridged, La Marzocco double basket. And whats with the crappy turbo-frother attachment?

                        ... if you think that you will upgrade to single-group heat exchanger machine, your best bet is to get a kickass grinder and a cheap, but barely passable machine, like the gaggia carezza.

                        Cheers,

                        Luca

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: silvia vs imat mokita

                          Gentlemen,
                          sometimes its easy to get carried away, myself included.

                          So lets get back to basics for the person asking the question.

                          The mokita and its virtually identical running partner the caffe fenice are excellent domestic machines but as far as I am aware they have a turbo frother. The turbo frother end cant be removed ( if you do, as far as I know you are left with a dirty great big hole about 1/4 inch in diameter and you certainly wont get any froth with that) so if you are looking for the holy grail of froth (micro froth) these models are basically no good to you because they tend to entrain air and bubble up the froth....

                          The silvia has a much larger boiler (and therefore larger steam capacity for entertaining), and the steam pipe is NOT turbo asssisted so you can chase the elusive micro froth if you wish.

                          The espresso coffee they all make is excellent, although the silvia is theoretically quicker to use if you are entertaining because the pressure relief function of the group solenoid valve fitted it  allows the operator to remove the group handle more quickly after coffee has been brewed, to refill and replace onto the group to make the next coffee.  

                          The standard of finish on both is fine and comparable, but the silvia body is probably made of thicker plate and of course the overall weight of the silvia is more, making it easier to fit and remove the group handle with less likelihood of moving the whols machine around on the bench.

                          Otherwise the method of operation of all the above is virtually identical....

                          I sell both machines ( silvia & fenice) so it doesnt matter to me which one the clients choose and the comparison made above is simply an unemotional fact list to try and help the interested party. Ultimately, they virtually do the same job but the silvia is theoretically quicker, and certainly has more steam capacity....this is an issue for entertaining.

                          However for the budget conscious the combi machines offer lower entry level cost, having the LUX grinder incorporated within the one body with the machine and as someone else said, you dont have to leave beans in the hopper to get hot....but they do get more messy than a machine and "outboard" grinder.

                          So there you have it, simple facts for your decision making pricess.


                          Here are some more facts:

                          Most people actually cant see the value in spending more on a grinder than on the machine and certainly it is overkill to purchase a 550 dollar machine and a 700 dollar grinder.... however if you wish to do so you dont have to restrict yourself to the pet brands that most coffee snobs/geeks always recommend. Once you are looking at a commercial grinder, there are any number of brand / models that all do THE SAME JOB, particularly when they are only going to be used in a domestic low use situation.

                          Grinders with conical burrs generally require "large" movements of the adjuster ring to get "small" incremental differences in the grind size. So whilst the individual incremental steps in the adjuster of the Lux for example look "big", they are actually minute steps in the grind adjustment. Except therefore in the case of individual preference in the external "look" of any particular grinder, I cant see anything wrong with the grind adjuster on the LUX, which otherwise is the same grinder as the Iberital Challenge, and both Isomac "professional" and "granmacinino" grinders and god knows how many sundry others....

                          And the lux is ofcourse the grinder inside the imat combi and nemox del opera machines...

                          And it is a very good domestic grinder that no domestic user should have any fear of in terms of grind quality even after upgrading to "better quality" espresso machines. It is very light in construction. In combi machines this is not an issue, but in "stand alone" units Luxes are easily moved around the bench and I personally like something a lot heavier and more stable to use....but this is something for the client to ponder over as an individual.

                          Commercial grinders are very heavy and are a pleasure to work with...but they cost a lot more for your 2 cuppas a day and domestic clients have to make their own decisions on whats right for them and their budget and what they think they might do in the future.

                          Hope this helps and please dont forget, I sell all of silvia / rocky / lux / solis maetsro plus / nemox caffe fenice and its "combi" stable mate the nemox delopera / Macap M5 / mini mazzer / francis francis /  etc etc etc ....so the choice really, is yours!

                          Regardz,
                          FC.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: silvia vs imat mokita

                            Well said, FC.  

                            I am astounded by the number of people who believe they have to buy a $1000 commercial grinder  designed to withstand the rigours of chomping through several kilos of beans a day....when in the domestic situation its requited to spit out some 40 or so grams daily.

                            More money is not buying a better quality grind...but an industrial strength build most probably irrelevant for domestic use.

                            Overkill is an understatement.

                            -Robusto

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: silvia vs imat mokita

                              Originally posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1130108140/0#12 date=1130195468
                              Gentlemen,

                              The mokita and its virtually identical running partner the caffe fenice are excellent domestic machines but as far as I am aware they have a turbo frother. The turbo frother end cant be removed ( if you do, as far as I know you are left with a dirty great big hole about 1/4 inch in diameter and you certainly wont get any froth with that) so if you are looking for the holy grail of froth (micro froth) these models are basically no good to you because they tend to entrain air and bubble up the froth....


                              Regardz,
                              FC.
                              My napoletana came with a turbo frother but once removed the steam tip is the same diameter as the one on my silvia was and makes effortless microfoam. As I didnt buy new its possible the part had been changed at some stage but the internals look the same as the pics of new ones posted elsewhere.

                              Comment

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