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  • #16
    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

    timed the heat up period for my bezzera from cold- 15:30- u can add that to the equation anyone whos interested!
    (this thread has probably put many to sleep and left others wondering isnt it all about drinking coffee, not timing cycles- it just helps me deal with my guilt over power wastage!)
    Brett
    ps, i cheated a bit by bleeding the steam arm for the first 2 times the boiler cycle wnt off and the pressure went from 1.1 bar to zero 1st time then to about 0.3 next time and third time stated at about 1.0- this is my usual proecdure

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    • #17
      Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

      Okay, let me revise the calculations to work in that 15:30 constant.


      22/162 = element on for 13.58% of the time


      (86400s in a day - 930s to heat up)= 85470
      (85470* 13.58%) + 930s constant = 12,536.83 seconds heating per day = 3.483hrs


      2.7kW * 14c/kWh = 37.8c/hr

      37.8c * 3.483 = $1.31/day = $39.30 /month


      Thats basically the running cost for the Bezzera in question 24/7, theres no point redoing the calculations for the one group machine as before as the previous assumptions of similar boiler insulation, heatup times, and heating:idle ratios would be quite ridiculous.

      Youd expect a 1grp to have a smaller boiler, but also much less wattage so theres no way of estimating for sure.

      If run for 16hrs (as i believe is a more than reasonable allowance, given that running overnight at home is pointless), the 2grp in question will cost about:

      (56670*13.58%) +930 = 8,625.79 = 2.396hrs

      37.8*2.396 = $0.905/day = $27.17.

      Pointless to pay $12 a month to run at night, youd think that even cafes should be on some kind of timer.

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      • #18
        Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

        my point exactly-
        i had thought that cafes did run machines only in daytime, but chris says no and he ought to know
        given the super quick heat up time (much faster than my little ecm, unless u cheat-see cheating miss silvia) my machine shows
        oh well
        thanks for the interesting calculations
        brett

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        • #19
          Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

          While the boiler may come up to temp in 15 minutes it will take up to an hour or even longer for the mass of the grouphead to come up to temp. During this period where the grouphead is still being warmed up the boiler will be cycling on more frequently than it does once the whole system is up to temp. If youre looking to calculate the exact power consumption youll need to figure this in as well.

          From my own experience and what Ive heard from others it appears that the cost of bringing a commercial machine up to temp from a cold start is about the same as it costs to run it for 3 to 4 hours once its reached temp. So if you figure 8 hours of downtime per night the true additional cost of leaving the machine on overnight is only the cost of running the machine for 4-5 hours.

          It is far cheaper for cafes to let the machine run 24/7 and pay the extra $10 or so a month in added electrical consumption than it is to pay a worker to come in an hour early every day. Or if its an owner run cafe that $10/mth is well worth paying to get that extra hour of sleep every day.

          Java "Likes his sleep" phile
          Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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          • #20
            Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

            yeah well thats true too, re boiler cycle while HX etc is still coming upto temp.

            Though instead of paying something, surely a timer can be fitted. But still, its not that big of a deal for the commercial environment though...just if something goes wrong in the middle of hte night.

            But yeah, good to get an idea of what youre in for if you decide to do it.

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            • #21
              Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

              Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1100176351/15#19 date=1154704199
              Though instead of paying something, surely a timer can be fitted. But still, its not that big of a deal for the commercial environment though...just if something goes wrong in the middle of hte night.
              The biggest potential overnight problem is a flood caused by a leak/broken pipe/hose. Use of a timer to turn on the machine does not mitigate this potential problem as the water must be left on overnight or you run the risk of damaging or even destroying your machine due to low water level.

              At the end of the day its all about assessing the risks present with the various options and weighing them against economics and convience.

              Personally after having left my 2-group Cimbali on 24/7 for a long time I now power it down at night and turn off the water supply to it after having a hose burst in the middle of the night which resulted in several cms of water in my kitchen and basement causing many thousands of dollars in damage. This included a new kitchen floor down too and including the sub-floor as well as a large wall area that must be replaced in addition to several thousands of dollars of damaged/destroyed personal property. Least you think that because youre using a brand new hose this wont happen, be warned, the hose that broke was less than 3 months old. And no, it did not break because it had been improperly installed, was exposed to heat, or was kinked/bent/stressed. Either a surge in the water pressure (common in city systems especially during the morning high use hours) caused the hose to fail and/or there was a hidden flaw in the material of the hose itself.

              So now I power down the machine every night and shut off the water supply to it and turn it all back on when I get up in the morning and have a cup of CP for my first coffee of the day while it is warming up.

              Java "Learned his lesson" phile
              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

                Originally posted by Javaphile link=1100176351/15#20 date=1154712180


                At the end of the day its all about assessing the risks present with the various options and weighing them against economics and convience.

                Personally after having left my 2-group Cimbali on 24/7 for a long time I now power it down at night and turn off the water supply to it after having a hose burst in the middle of the night which resulted in several cms of water in my kitchen and basement causing many thousands of dollars in damage.

                Java "Learned his lesson" phile
                You can have the same problem with a dishwasher, washing machine or any other appliance with a flexible hose.......

                So, for the sake of convenience, Ill be leaving my Cimballi on 24/7..... and I/\/ll just keep my fingers crossed

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                • #23
                  Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

                  You could always use a sprinkler timer as well if you were really paranoid, AND wanted a great coffee in teh morning.

                  Those electric timers you buy at Bunnings for like $30 would keep the water in the machine, but stop any more from coming in if a leak was sprung.

                  Synchronise the timers, and youre set...

                  heheh



                  What kind of Cimbali did you get JavaB? ( i assume from your future-tense youve just ordered it or something?)

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                  • #24
                    Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

                    Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1100176351/15#22 date=1154765962

                    What kind of Cimbali did you get JavaB? ( i assume from your future-tense youve just ordered it or something?)
                    It is a Cimbali M20 2 group. About 17 years old, just retired from a coffee shop here in Perth.

                    Well looked after and, after a clean etc, is making great coffee (just fired her up today!)





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                    • #25
                      Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

                      lovely machine javab- before i was given the 2 grp bezzera i would have said no point in a 2 grp machine- but have a few people over - u have the option of running 2 handles and so much steam and that huge heat sink!
                      best of luck
                      brett

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                      • #26
                        Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

                        Heheh, its like proud parents with their new kids.


                        The 2 groups definitely have a lot more "wow" factor than the 1 groupers i reckon.
                        And both those units are particularly attractive, so you can really make a feature of them.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Cost of running a commercial machine 24/7

                          Originally posted by JavaB link=1100176351/15#21 date=1154751282
                          You can have the same problem with a dishwasher, washing machine or any other appliance with a flexible hose.......

                          So, for the sake of convenience, Ill be leaving my Cimballi on 24/7..... and I/\/ll just keep my fingers crossed
                          Yep,

                          Thats right JavaB. There is a way to prevent accidental leakage/flooding with such a setup though and that is by fitting what is called a suitably rated "Counterbalance" valve in between the hose and the tap fixture. Its not something usually found in the kitchen though, more commonly found in industry, especially in hydraulic/pneumatic circuits where high pressure hoses are connected to an actuating Ram that has to maintain position under load, even if a hose should burst. In this situation the valve changes position and prevents the egress of hydraulic fluid or gas.

                          A valve that would be suitable for household use under normal mains water system pressures would more than likely be a pneumatic valve though and would have to be checked as being suitable for use with a liquid..... quite a few of them would be though as most of these valves have to be able to resist moisture that has condensed out of the air or gas. Might be worth checking into though if you would like a bit more peace of mind , All the best,

                          Mal.
                          P.S.
                          Found a built for purpose valve made by a company in New Zealand that will suit almost all situations. Can be found here... http://www.ralenti.co.nz/products/reli005.html.

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