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  • #16
    Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

    something i want to comment on, and this may be off topic, but it kind of regards the new sunbeam machine ... there seems to be this general dislike of anything thermoblock and anything made by a big brand name company. Why?

    If a thermoblock was capable of producing the same temperature stability as a boiler (without running the risk of overheating the water), then whats the problem? I understand that many thermoblock machines have really crappy temp-stability ... but if a machine comes out with a really good quality thing, then is there any difference? Its the same water heated to the same temperature, delivered to the coffee at the same pressure, in the same amount of time.

    I guess theres a little bit of label-worship going on ... Im caught up in it too - i remember cringing when my mum used to take me to bestnless to go clothes shopping, when id much rather go into a surf shop...

    Secondly, would we all be whinging about sunbeam if they invented the Silvia? Or the La Marzocco? Why are we dead-set against them (and breville for that matter) for trying to produce a good quality espresso machine, that looks sexy, at a low cost, that is readily available at your average department store? I say, good on them!

    Sorry, this is just my ongoing rant - I dont mean to upset or hurt anyone, i just wanna challenge peoples opinions about stuff, coz in the end, my coffee tastes as good, if not better than every cafe ive sampled in my part of sydney (and thats what my friends tell me, not my own ego), and that tells me something about my machine.

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    • #17
      Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

      so did u get the new sunbeam? i thought i read somewhere that it dont come out for a little while.....
      hey id be quite interested in trying this machine out, im sure its good with the instant steam thing. i think the general feeling here is that thermoblocks dont last quite as long as the brass boiler in the silvia but i really dont know a whole lot about it. i tested a silvia alongside a saeco via venezia the other day which pulled identical shots at less than half the price & with a very attractive warranty etc. it also produced steam pressure in the same amount of time & if i was really in the market for this kind of setup then id probably go in that direction because the steam wand was much more user friendly on the saeco with a ball/swivel compared to silvias clumsy steam wand.
      theres an article around somewhere describing the boilers etc of many types of machines with close up photos of corrosion after 12 months or so to various degrees. its a useful read, ill have a look for u. ive had some bad luck with sunbeam appliances in the past which is why id be a little hesitant in future & i wouldnt expect it to last 15 or so years.
      anyway i shouldnt really say too much here, this is coming from someone who has just bought a gaggia super auto (delivered sometime this week yay! ) and gone against the whole pro semi automatic thing.
      good luck with it & which ever way u go, make sure u trial it first, preferrably alongside similar machines aswell as more expensive ones.
      sam

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      • #18
        Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

        Mattyj. Do a google search -crema domestic espresso machines- Might give you an insite..Im against any thing thats cooked, boiled, etc in ALUMINIUM. Steel or Brass boilers OK. Its an individual thingo..I see the new Sunbeam have Therm-o-Blocks encased in Stainless steel !!! but the water still got to flow through Aluminium. May be others have an opinion on this Subject. Cheers...

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        • #19
          Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

          Hi Mal, Yep got that wrong. Stainless Steel Lined interesting whats that mean? Aluminium lined with a piece S/S Foil. Why not make it soldid S/S or maybe a good heat conductor solid brass no doubt built to a Price.... Going to be interesting to see reviews, looks & sounds the goods no doubt all will be revealed in coming weeks. Cheers....

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          • #20
            Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

            Originally posted by TwIsTeD link=1109515596/15#17 date=1110198631
            Mattyj. Do a google search -crema domestic espresso machines- Might give you an insite..Im against any thing thats cooked, boiled, etc in ALUMINIUM. Steel or Brass boilers OK. Its an individual thingo..I see the new Sunbeam have Therm-o-Blocks encased in Stainless steel !!! but the water still got to flow through Aluminium. May be others have an opinion on this Subject. Cheers...
            Hi TwIsTeD,

            From the description of the new Sunbeam, it says the t/blocks are s/s lined, not encased, so that implies that it is the water interface that is s/s not the outside. There would be no point in making the outside of the t/blocks in s/s, it just wouldnt serve any purpose. So from what I read, the Sunbeam sounds like a reasonably well designed espresso machine.

            Itll come down to practical testing of the machine by someone who not only knows what theyre doing but has all of the technical support and resources required to produce objective data as well as the subjective qualities that need to be reported upon.

            Cheers,
            Mal.

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            • #21
              Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

              Hi again TwIsTeD,

              Yep, I would say that it is definitely made to a price point alright. The choice of using Aluminium instead of solid s/s is that pure Al is a better conductor of heat. It would have been better if they would have used Brass or Copper (both of which can be cast and neither of which would need a s/s lining) but I guess if theyre going to bring this machine in at the price point indicated then some compromises are going to have to be made.

              Definitely attractive though, the equivalent of a Dual Boiler machine for less than $700.00. If the design and manufacturing is up to scratch then it will probably give a few of the higher echelon machine manufacturers something to think about. All the best,

              Mal.

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              • #22
                Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

                yeah- but for me, thermoblocks are thermoblocks...no matter how theyre packaged and with their inherent compromises. Youd have to think that a thermoblock must cost about 5 bucks....seeing as theyre so popular in the low enders.....

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                • #23
                  Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

                  Originally posted by mattyj link=1109515596/15#15 date=1110193387
                  there seems to be this general dislike of anything thermoblock and anything made by a big brand name company. Why?

                  If a thermoblock was capable of producing the same temperature stability as a boiler (without running the risk of overheating the water), then whats the problem?
                  That is the problem - they cant get the thermal stability required, at least not with what they are spending (Quickmill aside).

                  The reason these big name companies use thermoblocks is that they are much cheaper to make than boilers as 2muchcoffeeman has said. As an example, Lets compare a couple of Gaggia & Sunbeam semiautos. Now some of the price differential is due to country of origin (Spain vs China) but a lot of it is due to the components. The Gaggia Coffee Deluxe is roughly equivalent to the Sunbeam Crema - both are nicely built (if anything, the Crema is more nicely finished), metal bodied machines with no solenoid valve and the RRP for the Coffee Deluxe is $500 while the Crema is $250. The much lamented Gaggia Carezza was identical internally to the Coffee Deluxe but with a plastic body while the same can be said for the Sunbeam Bar Espresso compared to the Crema - RRP for these are (was) $300 for the Carezza and $150 for the Bar Espresso. The thermoblock is a major contributor to the cheaper prices of the Sunbeams (along with the aluminium PFs and group heads and probably a non-Ulka vibe pump). Now anyone who has been involved with manufacturing will tell you that price cutting gets much harder as the price of an item falls so Sunbeam is doing really well to get prices down as low as they have.

                  OK, the even cheaper (RRP $110) Sunbeam Cafe Ristretto is a boiler machine but the boiler in that is so small that the temp stability is even worse than that of their thermoblock machines (the aluminium grouphead also plays a part here - the beefy brass grouphead is one reason the Gaggias get away with their relatively small boilers but also adds to their cost). However, this leads us to the other problem with thermoblock machines: their steaming output is very low compared with boiler machines as they do not have the thermal inertia of the water stored in the boiler to give high steam pressure - the Ristretto, even with its little boiler, outsteams the thermoblock machines quite easily even if the steam is not as dry as that of the thermoblock machines.

                  OK, it is possible that this new Sunbeam will be better, since they are spending extra on lining it with SS but Id like to see it in action 1st. For better temp stability, the brew thermoblock will need a longer water path so there is some real temp inertia to counter the big swings of the bimetallic thermostat (or else they electronically control the thing but I havent seen that mentioned anywhere). For better steaming, the steam thermoblock will need to be much higher powered than the existing dual purpose ones (this is quite possible but could cause the machine to draw more than the 10 amps a standard power point is specd for).

                  Sorry but TANSTAAFL.

                  Greg

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                  • #24
                    Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

                    errrr.....whats TANSTAAFL?

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                    • #25
                      Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

                      A comment by one of my favorite authors (RA Heinlein - RIP  :-[) - There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch  

                      Greg

                      PS Sam, could you please give some feedback here on your superauto when it arrives? I have a friend who is interested in one for their office.

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                      • #26
                        Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

                        Let me say, im not just going to buy this machine because its sunbeam, or because its thermoblock. Of course id try before i buy, and of course i wanna see what else i can get around the $600 mark, before i spend that much on something.

                        I just get a bit annoyed when people discredit something without even trying it, and because theyve heard someone else say something bad about it. The bottom line is, i get decent espresso and nice microfoam out of my machine, and so do many other users. Sure ive had to replace the die-cast metal portafilter with a real brass one, but doesnt everyone make tweaks to their machines?

                        I guess what sets this off is that ive gotten a lot of emails from people saying that theyve read my posts on coffeegeek, and theyve got questions to ask about getting better coffee out of thier sunbeam/breville ... it seems that theyre too afraid to post on that site because they think theyll be looked down upon or something, for having the wrong machine. I also get annoyed when people say thats not real espresso because my water is heated differently to yours.

                        But lets just say this machine works great - good temp stability - good strong dry steam. Im keen to hear who would buy it, and who wouldnt, and for what reasons.

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                        • #27
                          Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

                          Matt when it all comes down to the crunch... If you think that you will be happy with this machine or that machine... is a personal opinion.

                          We all have different tastes and different needs....

                          IF we read every review on every machine we would still find some who will find faults with them... We have a Boema and we like it very much, but then some purists will say that they have problems... find me a machine with no problems and I will show you a machine that is going to have problems... Nothing in this world as you very well know is for certain.

                          Make your choice and if it doesnt work out, then theres always eBay.

                          cheers

                          FB

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                          • #28
                            Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

                            If it works, thats great. Itd be terrific to have a good machine with those capabilities at that price.

                            The Quickmill thermoblocks work well by all accounts. Im just outlining why the cheap thermoblocks get bagged. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

                            Greg

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                            • #29
                              Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

                              Well from what ive heard the "New Sunbeam" is fitted with Quickmill Thermoblocks. They are top of the Town Stuff Excellent have Stainless Steel lined tubes for the water path, tight temp control, and an added length of water path for the steam, the Bad Ones are just a pair of Aluminium disks with channels etched into them, pressed together.....as i said before i dont want to drink water cooked in Aluminium ....Bad for Brain & Body further on down the track.........

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                              • #30
                                Re: New Sunbeam Espresso Machine!

                                I think it comes down to personal choice.

                                I would like to think that noone would flame anyone on this forum for saying they got a decent coffee (ITHO) out of their thermobloc machine. I personally have written posts concentrating on low end machines, and trying to get the best out of them.

                                Saying that, I think people need to understand when you post here you will get other peoples personal opions BACK! People who are REALLY into coffee (yep, CoffeeSnobs is a bit antagonistic isnt it!) Seems like some people arch up a bit too fast when someone doesnt agree with them. Or they start out by thinking someone will not agree with them... and they seem to take it as a personal affront. This is DISCUSSION. Its a FORUM... for DISCUSSION.

                                Great coffee comes from any source where the right criteria are met. I love what Kevin Knox wrote about Espresso in "Coffee Basics". - "Unlike other methods of brewing coffee, this IS rocket science. True espresso is uniquely a product of technology... The more money you pay at home the closer to the commercial standard you will come. No one wants to hear this, but it is true."

                                Is the Sunbeam machine good? No idea, Ive not read a review by anyone I would trust. Has it got potential... yep, sounds like it. Would I pay $600 for a S/S Thermoblock machine - No. Id save the extra $100 and get a Silvia, because I have read just about everywhere that it is the best machine pre-HX. I have read this from people I trust, and buy green beans from, people who LOVE coffee. (enough to make a living out of it!)

                                I personally have technology... a Gaggia Carezza... and man-o-man does it knock out a wonderfull Ristretto in the morning!

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