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$2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

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  • #16
    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Originally posted by Javaphile link=1113217910/0#14 date=1113419608
    I dont know about down there, but over here in the US you can pick up a used 2-group commercial HX machine for well under $1,000.  If you have the space
    That last bit is the most relevent part down here. The 2 group commercials are relatively cheap but they are HUGE. You need a REALLY BIG kitchen if a 2 group machine is not to dominate it. Also heat up time is quite long so youre best leaving them on 24/7 or all day, at least.

    Greg

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    • #17
      Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

      Or set it up someplace other than the kitchen. Perhaps out in the livingroom for display purposes as well as ease of access and a gathering point for those espresso parties.

      I leave my 2-group on 24/7 and as best as I can figure it costs me about $20US a month in electricity.

      If space is the determining factor then another option would be a used commercial single group. While they generally go for more than a 2-group I see them pretty frequently here for under $1,000.

      Java "So many choices, so little space" phile
      Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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      • #18
        Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

        Hi all,

        Since were on this topic, does anyone have an opinion on the Bezzera range of machines (BZ99, BZ02S and BZ02SDE Volumetric)? These machines seem to be under the radar in terms of ownership, as I have not seen much at all in Aus in the way of reviews or even comments. I have been quoted for the 99 at $1850 and the 02S for $1950 (both exactly the same internally, it is only the external shape that is different), so the price is definately attractive.

        As I understand it, these have a smaller HX boiler at 1.7L (which is still bigger than the Opera) compared to other machines that I have seen up here in Brisbane (which aint too much BTW). But for the demo that I have seen they really do brew and steam very well (for my Breville and Sunbeam affected eyes anyway...).

        Any feedback???

        Hooroo gang,

        Ken

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        • #19
          Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

          Ken,

          The other machine I was seriously considering was the BZ02s - but after having a look at one in Melbourne, I went with the Diadema. I was on a strict budget myself, but after the way my wife saw me looking at the Diadema, she slapped me and then allowed me to spend the extra $300......

          FC sells both units, so perhaps I could suggest a more in depth discussion with him? Helped me to make my decision greatly!

          Regards,

          James

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          • #20
            Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

            Hello James,

            Two quick questions - What didnt you like about the Bezzera (or was the Diadema just too good overall), and do you (or anyone else for that matter) know if the Diadema is in Brisbane at all.

            The Dir of Finances loves the look of the Bezzera 02S (personlly I like the commercial shape of the 99) and so she would of course like to see it in the flesh before committing a couple of big wads of dosh...

            Ken.

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            • #21
              Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

              I bought an ECM Giotto Classic a couple of years ago and have been extremely happy with it.

              Unlike most (all?) other HX machines in this class the boiler is horizontal which gives me more heat in the cup tray on top. Some of the machines in this price bracket have a slightly smaller boiler which can affect temperature stability.

              I disagree with the comparison between Silvia and Giotto. I owened a Silvia before the Giotto and although I could pull a good cup on the Silvia it was much harder to be consistent and my Giotto can produces a much better cup on average. Silvia has very good steam pressure but can only produce a relatively small amount. My Giotto can produce flat whites all day.

              The steam arm on the newer Giotto Premium swivels nicely and is double chambered so you get far less milk stuck on the shaft as it is much cooler on the outside.

              Any of the E61 machines is a good buy but bear in mind that the difference in price between brands is a least partly due to some of the features I mention here.

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              • #22
                Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

                Been down this same path and decided on the Diadema splendor. The fact that it is a prosumer machine, basically a down scaled commercial machine with fantastic asthetics, the polished case sitting on my Granite bench top beside the basalt (my kitchen is a bit of a geology lesson) splashback will be fantastic. The olde worlde styling, exposed group lack of buttons (uses a lever to activate the group) all combine to make the xtra money worthwhile. How does the saying go - a work of art that works. Now just waiting for the settlement on my other house to go through.

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                • #23
                  Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

                  Boiler size.

                  Besides taking time to get the machine up to the correct heat, what difference does this make to temperature stability once the machine is warm?

                  Wired suggests that Giottos larger boiler (1.8 litres) makes it more stable. For infomrations sake, the Bezzeras have a 1.5L boiler, the Isomacs 1.4L and the Diademas (1.2 or 1.3L). Does this mean that the Diademas are less temperature stable? Given the fact that so many people on this noticboard like them, I doubt it. But I am just enquiring.

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                  • #24
                    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

                    Originally posted by Javaphile link=1113217910/15#16 date=1113442616
                    Or set it up someplace other than the kitchen.    Perhaps out in the livingroom for display purposes as well as ease of access and a gathering point for those espresso parties.  
                    A friend of mine has done that. A fully plumbed in 2 grouper with a MD50 grinder in his HT room!!

                    Originally posted by chopinhauer link=1113217910/15#22 date=1113451720
                    Wired suggests that Giottos larger boiler (1.8 litres) makes it more stable. For infomrations sake, the Bezzeras have a 1.5L boiler, the Isomacs 1.4L and the Diademas (1.2 or 1.3L). Does this mean that the Diademas are less temperature stable? Given the fact that so many people on this noticboard like them, I doubt it. But I am just enquiring.
                    Everything being equal, a larger boiler will give more thermal stability but there are so many variables in machine design that the in shot stability difference will be dominated by other factors. Shot to shot stability will favour larger boilered machines but things like group design and plumbling layout will also have contributions.

                    Greg

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                    • #25
                      Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

                      Remember, half that boiler is steam. The larger boiler size also gives you more steaming ability.

                      In the size range youre talking about (1.2l-1.8l) if youre doing just espressos they might be able to do shot after shot. If youre doing lattes/capps they will most likely not be able to do continous high duty. That is the primary difference between prosumer and commercial machines, the ability to do continous pulls and frothing with no recovery time needed.

                      Of course this is all generic information specific to no system and your milage may vary depending on the model and your driving habits. ;D Generally speaking the larger the boiler and the more massive the grouphead the better off you are. Theres a reason the high-end 2-group commercial machines use a 10l or even 12l boiler and a grouphead with 8kg of brass in it. ;D ;D ;D

                      Another thing to keep in mind is the ease of use of the different grouphead models. The E61 is considered a very forgiving grouphead while the one used on Cimbalis are very unforgiving and will show up any lack of proper preparation of the puck. E61s also require more flushing than the Cimbalis to bring the head to proper temp. It is easier to produce a drinkable cup on an E61 than on a Cimbali, but if you put more time into perfecting your technique the Cimbali will pull great shots with far more frequency than the E61 will. While these comments apply specificly to the E61 and the Cimbali grouphead they hold true as a general rule for prosumer vs commercial machines.

                      Java "A few more things to consider" phile
                      Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

                        Hey Javaphile,

                        Would your comments apply to say, a Bezzera BZ99 (equivalent to the Pasquini Livia). That is to say, can one pull better coffees on this machine than the E-61 machines, so long, of course, as one has good technique?

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                        • #27
                          Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

                          Originally posted by chopinhauer link=1113217910/15#25 date=1113476227
                          Hey Javaphile,

                          Would your comments apply to say, a Bezzera BZ99 (equivalent to the Pasquini Livia). That is to say, can one pull better coffees on this machine than the E-61 machines, so long, of course, as one has good technique?
                          Hhhmmm...Im afraid I dont know anything about that machine in particular but as I understand it the Livia is a prosumer machine and not a commercial machine so it would be in roughly the same catagory as the other prosumer machines using the E-61 grouphead. You can find E-61s on low end commercial units. Many of the smaller espresso machine manufacturers still use the E-61 design as its such a forgiving grouphead. However Im not aware of any of the higher end machines using it. The E-61 is known to run hot and requires a pretty complex flushing regimen to brew consistantly at the proper temp.

                          In the end if youre willing to work on your technique to perfect a consistantly repeatable process and you learn your machine well enough any prosumer or commercial machine can produce a great pull.

                          Java "Always looking for that God Shot phile
                          Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

                            I love my Giotto at home...way sexy too  ;D. Sensational espresso and Ive found a 1.1 bar sweet spot for milk texture...Yes- they are slightly more pricey than some HX machines but Im glad I spent the extra bucks- shall we call them the Charlize T of machines?  ....The bonus of a good prosumer machine at home it that the boilers are not too big...I can get a good morning heart-starter made with a 10 min warm up time....Re the flushing routine, Ive never found running 1/2 cup of water through the group head before I pull the first shot to be too complex...

                            Am sure that there wont be another attack up upgraditis for a long, long time  

                            Chris

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                            • #29
                              Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

                              Originally posted by Javaphile link=1113217910/15#24 date=1113474105
                               The E61 is considered a very forgiving grouphead while the one used on Cimbalis are very unforgiving and will show up any lack of proper preparation of the puck.  E61s also require more flushing than the Cimbalis to bring the head to proper temp.  It is easier to produce a drinkable cup on an E61 than on a Cimbali, but if you put more time into perfecting your technique the Cimbali will pull great shots with far more frequency than the E61 will.  While these comments apply specificly to the E61 and the Cimbali grouphead they hold true as a general rule for prosumer vs commercial machines.
                              Why do you say this? Is it the temperature hump that the Cimbalis (and perhaps other unheated groupheads) are supposed to have which allows for better coffee but more difficult extractions? This goes against everything that Schomer says about flat shot profiles.

                              Greg

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                              • #30
                                Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

                                Originally posted by kaanage link=1113217910/15#28 date=1113795998
                                Why do you say this? Is it the temperature hump that the Cimbalis (and perhaps other unheated groupheads) are supposed to have which allows for better coffee but more difficult extractions? This goes against everything that Schomer says about flat shot profiles.

                                Greg

                                Hey Greg,

                                Heres a link to a review of the Cimbali Junior with many other links on that page relating to pros and cons of various designs and machines.

                                http://www.home-barista.com/junior-buyers-guide.html

                                Ive seen similiar sentiments echoed elsewhere but this site brings together many different areas very nicely I thought, and seems to do it in about as impartial a manner as Ive seen.

                                Enjoy!

                                Java "Hhhmmmm....Cimbali!" phile
                                Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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