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  • #16
    Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

    Originally posted by susan09@optusnet.c link=1129844239/0#9 date=1180564371
    Originally posted by Javaphile link=1129844239/0#1 date=1129844636
    Personal opinion, Pods suck. At *any price.

    Java "Runs from the Pods" phile
    The coffee pods are fantastic and I have hundreds of customers who agree good full flavoured coffee, no messy grinding etc to deal with and with all the different flavours there is something to please everyone(well almost everyone).
    And just to add an additional very cost effective.
    Hi Susan,

    You have probably already realised that you have just waved a red rag at a bull ;D

    Regarding the cost point, I think that it is delightfully ironic that you would try to cite that on a forum where people buy green coffee beans and roast them themselves. Id love you to elaborate on the cost. Id also be very interested if you could post a high resolution photo of what one of the nespresso pods looks like when you cut it open.

    Regarding flavour, if youre in Melbourne, youre more than welcome to bring a nespresso machine into my cafe and we can make each other coffee to see what were on about.

    Regarding convenience, I am very happy to concede that Nespresso is a very convenient system. It is up to individuals to decide what this is worth to them. Your customers obviously value this very highly. I doubt very much that anyone on this webpage would have the same priorities, but thats how you get a marketplace

    It would be very interesting to do a shootout between the Nespresso system and a quality superautomatic machine.

    Cheers,

    Luca

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

      Originally posted by susan09@optusnet.c link=1129844239/0#9 date=1180564371
      The coffee pods are fantastic and I have hundreds of customers who agree good full flavoured coffee, no messy grinding etc to deal with and with all the different flavours there is something to please everyone(well almost everyone).
      And just to add an additional very cost effective.
      Anybody who thinks pods produce great coffee has either never had properly brewed fresh roasted coffee or has no tastebuds to differentiate between the two.

      Do they have a market niche with many happy customers? Yes. But so does instant. That doesnt mean either are good coffee.


      Java "Still running from the pods!" phile
      Toys! I must have new toys!!!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

        Originally posted by Javaphile link=1129844239/15#16 date=1180583502

        Do they have a market niche with many happy customers? Yes. But so does instant. That doesnt mean either are good coffee.
        Yep, this is so true!

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

          Originally posted by JavaB link=1129844239/0#14 date=1180569946
          1. Instant coffee (an easy winner)
          2. Any machine using stale beans (beans more than 3 weeks post roast or grounds 3 minutes post grinding) - includes pods which are probably at the better end of this range.
          3. Super automatics using fresh beans (well they were fresh when loaded into the hopper)
          4. Super automatics using fresh beans loaded as required
          5. plunger / french press coffee using freshly ground fresh beans
          6. Automatic machines with freshly ground beans (used as an automatic)
          7. Automatic machines (used manually) and all other machines using freshly ground beans....

          The placement of plunger / french press coffee could be considered equal to coffee produced by those in 7 (depending on taste preference).
          Cant agree with your summation on Plunger brewed coffee there JB. The way I make it here at home I would put it at just slightly under the best shot I can pull from my Bezz, and thats a shot with lots of beautiful, rich, dark red crema, not a crap shot :

          Mal.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

            Originally posted by Mal link=1129844239/15#18 date=1180608021
            Originally posted by JavaB link=1129844239/0#14 date=1180569946
            5. plunger / french press coffee using freshly ground fresh beans

            7. Automatic machines (used manually) and all other machines using freshly ground beans....

            The placement of plunger / french press coffee could be considered equal to coffee produced by those in 7 (depending on taste preference).
            Cant agree with your summation on Plunger brewed coffee there JB. The way I make it here at home I would put it at just slightly under the best shot I can pull from my Bezz, and thats a shot with lots of beautiful, rich, dark red crema, not a crap shot :

            Mal.
            Hey Mal,

            Didnt you notice the extra point:

            "The placement of plunger / french press coffee could be considered equal to coffee produced by those in 7 (depending on taste preference)."

            - basically Im saying it can be equal to the best

            Not everyone would agree.... I personally think a good french press is the equal.... but only if you like long blacks....(which I do).... but not much good if you only like espressos, cappuccinos and/or lattes :

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

              Yes mate,

              Saw that, but seemed to be referring to Autos, which Ive never much fancied to be honest, even when sampling brews from manual/semi-manual operation :-?.

              Mal.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

                Originally posted by Mal link=1129844239/15#20 date=1180620877
                Yes mate,

                Saw that, but seemed to be referring to Autos, which Ive never much fancied to be honest, even when sampling brews from manual/semi-manual operation :-?.

                Mal.
                Ahh....

                Im referring to autos (like my La Cimbali M20 operated by the manual pour button - it really is a semi auto in that mode.....) not super autos (like the Jura.... or dare I say Saeco etc which are at 2 and 3).

                The autos using the volumetric feature - IMHO are better for espresso/latte/cappuccino production than a french press.... but certainly not for a long black .

                Maybe Id better define the machine types:

                Manual - only brew temperature set by the machine (typical lever machine)

                Semi-Automatic - brew temperature and pressure set by the machine (BZ-35, M20)

                Automatic- brew temperature and pressure plus volumetric dosing set by the machine (M20 Dosatron)

                Super Automatic- brew temperature, pressure, volume of extraction, grind size, volume of grounds and tamp pressure all set by the machine (Jura)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

                  I get ya now

                  Thought you were referring to Super-Autos truncated to Autos.... Should have known better,

                  Cheers,
                  Mal.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

                    OK JavaB, where does a good Moka Pot brew fall in your list of quality?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

                      Bill44A,

                      The problem with Moka Pots is there are some REALLY good ones.... and a lot that are junk....

                      But with good technique (and that of course applies to all "machines" in the list) and a quality Moka Pot - Ive had coffee which was the equal to a high quality semi-automatic machine...... mind you Ive had some which was worse than instant as well - poor quality pot and bad technique!!

                      Its very hard to try to scale the quality because Im talking generic categories of machines..... but a quality Moka Pot makes a very nice coffee indeed.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

                        In defence of pod systems, you cna get a TERRIBLE cup of coffee from espresso "fresh" coffee as well as pods, so that is not an argument. My wife and I have a KRUPS little one at home, cost $350, has worked fine for 2 years adn we love it. The little Nespresso capsules are always fresh because they are sealed. She has a strong one, I am a medium long coffee, so we can have a variety at home and they are always fresh.
                        Reasons to have a pod machine:
                        *You dont drink a lot of coffee, so the 70 cents a cup is not a lot of $$.
                        * You dont want stale coffee, cos you will have lots of wastage with fresh ground coffee unless you have lots of cups.
                        * You dont mind having to buy them from one source; it seems many of you dont like the pods because it is some kind of commercial conspiracy that limits civil liberties.. well kinda like having to buy your Subaru parts from a Subaru dealer... bastards!!! I enjoy the monthly trip to Lonsdale street, a free cuppa, check out the new flavours and buy 60 pods.
                        * You dont want a machine that dominates your space.
                        * you are old but want good coffee;; I am about to buy a pod machine for my 80 year old parents, as a moving present. They are going to their retirement village and will love their one a day from an easy, auto machine.
                        By the way, the taste of the pod coffee is great, according to my wife and I, our friends and Choice magazine that included a couple in their tests two years ago.
                        We love a "real " coffee when out, but for home our pod machine is the best choice for us.
                        Cheers, Geoff.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

                          Good argumets for the pods there Geoff.

                          Ive decided to go for the manual espresso machine so I can learn how to pull some decent shots and make quality coffees. I dont mind the mess, the space considerations and perhaps the increased costs of grinders, etc.

                          Ive been quite lucky. I nearly will always buy second hand, mostly because I love a bargain! I bought the espresso machine on evil bay, and two grinders from members on this site. The whole lot came to less than $500. How good is that? I also have a plunger and a stove top and will play with those from time to time.

                          I guess it comes down to personal preference and convenience. I would prefer to have a pod coffee over an instant any day but probably not over a freshly ground espresso.

                          Cheers. Fiery.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

                            Originally posted by MelbourneGeoff link=1129844239/15#25 date=1186318248
                            In defence of pod systems, you cna get a TERRIBLE cup of coffee from espresso "fresh" coffee as well as pods, so that is not an argument.
                            Let me draw an analogy with bread. You can make a terrible sandwich with freshly baked bread if you dont know what youre doing; lets say that you put vaseline on it instead of butter, for an extreme perspective. You can also make a terrible sandwich with fresh bread if the bread has been baked badly; eg. if it has been burnt, or if sand has gotten mixed in with the flour.

                            Same thing with fresh coffee; you can make a terrible espresso with the best coffee that you can find if you dont know what youre doing; eg. if you grind way too coarse, or if you extract liquid twice from one puck. You can also make terrible espresso from fresh coffee that has been badly roasted and blended; eg. burnt, or poor quality green used.

                            If you make a sandwich with stale bread, the stale bread will always have an impact on how good the sandwich tastes, although you might use other great ingredients in it. In the same way, having stale coffee limits how good an espresso you can extract, even if you are the best barista in the world.

                            Personally, I wouldnt want to eat a sandwich made with stale bread and I wouldnt want to drink an espresso made with stale coffee. Fresh coffee is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for great espresso. I dont think that anyone ever said that it was a necessary and sufficient condition.

                            As for what constitutes "fresh," you said:

                            The little Nespresso capsules are always fresh because they are sealed.
                            I think that youll struggle to find many people agreeing with that.

                            Two propositions are inherent in that statement; (a) the coffee is fresh at the time that it is sealed and; (b) the sealing prevents the contents from becoming stale. I think that both propositions are pretty doubtful:

                            (a) Most people will tell you that ground coffee deteriorates within minutes of grinding. Personally, I think that you can probably get a decent espresso out of coffee grounds that have been sitting around for something in the order of twenty minutes or maybe more, but there is a pretty quick drop-off in aromatics, and you would have to adjust your grind to take into account the different behaviour of this coffee. Im sure that its completely gone within a matter of hours.

                            I doubt very much that the contents of the nespresso capsules would be sealed immediately upon grinding. Any roaster can have pods made up for them; they just need to grind the coffee, package it, then ship it off to the pod making company. It probably takes a week or two before it is packaged. Maybe Nestle get it done in a day, if they do it all in their own facility. Enough time for the coffee to become stale. Even being generous and presuming that the coffee is ground and then immediately sealed, at the very least, the more volatile aromatics will surely have gone.

                            If anyone can point us to videos or photos of Nestles facility, Im sure wed all be interested to see it.

                            (b) The Nestle packaging doesnt seem to be revolutionary. You can buy generic pods that are nitrogen flushed. They pour like stale coffee and they taste stale. But that of itself might be more due to factor (a) - the coffee already being stale when packaged. A more directly related scenario is the nitrogen flushing that some roasters are employing. Nitrogen flushed whole bean coffee is probably useable for up to four or maybe even five or six weeks after roasting. It seems to slow the degradation, but it certainly doesnt stop it. If Nestle pods contain ground coffee, it will decay many, many times faster. Nitrogen flushing, vacuum packing, etc, dont stop degradation. Just last week I was speaking to someone from Fosters about preservatives in wine and its exactly the same - even if you could get rid of all of the oxygen, it will still decay.

                            It might be useful to return to the bread analogy; would you take a loaf of bread, slice it up, let it sit around for a week, then vacuum pack it and keep it for a month?

                            Id imagine that you probably wouldnt notice much difference between recently bought Nespresso pods and ones that have sat around for a few more weeks. My surmise would be that whatever is in there has already become as stale as it is going to become and isnt going to change much more.

                            Now none of this is to say that Nespresso doesnt have its own merits. It looks to me to be a lot more convenient, simpler and cleaner than actually grinding up coffee to make your own espresso. (Although I hasten to add that non-proprietary pod systems would probably be equal in those regards, but most of them certainly arent as well marketed or prettily packaged.) But I cant for the life of me see how Nespresso can be equated with espresso competently made using decent equipment and beans within their freshness period. If you like the flavour of Nespresso pods, thats fine, but I dont think that you have a leg to stand on if youre trying to convince me that they are in the same league of freshness and flavour as the messier, more complicated option.

                            If you like Nespresso, thats good for you. Stick with it. It certainly has advantages.

                            Cheers,

                            Luca

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

                              MelbourneGeoff,

                              Welcome to CoffeeSnobs,

                              I agree 110% with Lucas statements above.....

                              If you like the taste of instant coffee - great

                              If you like the taste from pod systems - also great....

                              But neither comes close to a properly made espresso with freshly roasted, freshly ground beans....

                              Sorry, but technology which is currently available cant turn a sows ear into a silk purse..... maybe one day.

                              But it hasnt happened yet!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: anyone using a nespresso machine?

                                Luca is spot on!

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