Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Hi,

    I am in the middle of a bout of upgraditis , and I was looking at the new machine from Quickmill the Vetrano Rotary . You dont really hear much about quickmill in Australia , will this machine be available in Australia ? A rotary pump is probably one of the only things that has been left out of the machines in the 2K price range .

  • #2
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Hi Paul,

    I dont know that you would need a Rotary Pump for a Single Group machine? The main reason theyre used in multi-group commercial machines is because of their ability to produce high flow rates whilst still maintaining the nominal brew pressure of 9 BAR. Good quality Reciprocating (Vibe) Pumps are well and truly able to supply the necessary flow rates right down to 1-2 BAR and can easily maintain this at normal brew pressures.

    I would say that unless you just want to have a Rotary Pump for the sake of it, stick with the Vibe Pump machines for Single Group home-based espresso production. Theyre a little bit noisy for a few seconds per shot but some Rotary Pumps are also noisy (they can make a kind of high pitched whining noise as the pressure increases) so I guess it comes down to what you want it for in the end . All the best,

    Mal.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

      Hi Mal,

      From what I was reading the two main differences in the performance of the rotary and vibe pumps is that firstly as you have mentioned the vibe pumps are much louder . But also that the rotary pumps provides a constant pressure at the brew head right across the shot whereas the vibe pumps dont seem to be able to achieve this and the brew pressure can vary over the shot .
      The view I go from the coffeegeek website was that the more stable brew pressure gave shots with a creamier texture.
      Anyway I am by no means trying to say that I am an expert on the subject , but would like to hear other people opinion

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

        from what I can gather, its easier to adjust the brew pressure of a rotary pump. With a vibe pump, you can regulate the maximum brew pressure through the OPV, but its a bit more hit and miss.

        Im sure Fresh_Coffee will jump in shortly to enlighten us.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

          a) Mals reply is spot on;

          b) Realistically, there can be no *noticeable* (to the palate/eye) difference between coffee made from a semi commercial machine with vibe Vs the same with rotary pump. There are many reasons, not the least of which are that you dont usually have 2 identical machines (one with each type of pump fitted) on the bench to compare from at the same time and, there are too many other little variables due to difficulty in obtaining identical operator technique one coffee to the next...to be able to attribute any differences in the resulting coffee...to the 2 different types of pump used.....

          We have this exemplified to us in house almost every day when we run our full size commercial 2 group training machine side by side with our semi commercial Diadema Junior & Unico Splendor machines on pre delivery test and during familiarisation sessions with new clients.... the one having a rotary pump & water connection, and the others having vibe pumps and water reservoir incorporated....they all make coffee to die for!

          c) Generally speaking (writing) vibe pumps are much more reliable in service in their respective equipment groupings (domestic & semi commercial) by far than rotary pumps are in their respective (commercial) equipment group.

          d) Opting for equipment for the sole reason that it has a rotary pump could get you
          1) a machine that might perform less satisfactorily "in toto" than competing machines with vibe pumps (eg ability to brew excellent espresso irrespective of type of pump fitted) and
          2) necessitates a dedicated plumbing connection in the house (rotary pump machines require connection to the mains). Having a water connection or not also has nothing to do with performance of the said equipment in terms of its actual ability to brew a quality coffee or for that matter, in the ability of the machine to be used to entertain a group of guests (ie capacity).

          Realistically, in domestic equipment, whether to opt for a rotary pump or not for technical reasons, is a non issue.

          Regardz,
          FC.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

            Originally posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1142233387/0#4 date=1142340711

            We have this exemplified to us in house almost every day when we run our full size commercial 2 group training machine side by side with our semi commercial Diadema Junior & Unico Splendor machines on pre delivery test and during familiarisation sessions with new clients.... the one having a rotary pump & water connection, and the others having vibe pumps and water reservoir incorporated....they all make coffee to die for!

            <snip>

            Realistically, in domestic equipment, whether to opt for a rotary pump or not for technical reasons, is a non issue.
            I also agree. To give a bit more background, the major exponent of rotary pumps at home is a US barista called Chris Tacy. He reviewed a machine called the Fiorenzato Bricoletta on home-barista.com and concluded that, only WHEN FITTED WITH A WATER FILTER, the machine was capable of producing shots with a similar clarity of flavour to what he would expect from the better commercial machines. Now, the thing to know about Chris is that he is an absolute machine. Im pretty sure that he is whats called a super taster (google it!) and has barista skills that surpass most of us. He was kind enough to offer us advice on buying a machine for my old boss new cafe and he also knows the ins and outs of everything espresso. For us mere mortals, his findings are probably irrelevant. If you get up to a skill level where they are relevant, you have to remember that its a two-way street; enhanced clarity of flavour will magnify defects in your technique and beans.

            The main reasons for a rotary pump are (a) noise and (b) the ability to plumb in the machine. Most cafes mount their pumps in the cabinet below the machine to further dampen noise and you should be able to do this with a vibe pump as well. Im not sure if vibe pumps are plumbable properly ... Note that it is essential to plumb rotary pumps. If they run dry, they die.

            I think that there is a quickmill importer, but they dont get the premium machines designed by Chris Nachtrieb. If you want them, best to drop an email to Chris himself. You probably will buy directly from Quickmill, will pay an arm and a leg and will not have warranty support.

            I think that the Fiorenzato Bricoletta is availalbe in Australia and is relatively cheap - google it. Make sure that you ask about service and availability of parts. Last I heard, a rotary Expobar dual-boiler was also available from Forsyths.

            Cheers,

            Luca

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

              Thanks Luca....availability of good local service backup & "commonality" of a particular model in the local market is a most important issue...I would rather see a client seek out & purchase a model that is well thought of and is commonly available locally.

              Suggest Paul give 2muchcoffeeman a call...particularly if you are in Melbourne (?).

              Regardz,
              FC.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary


                First of all I also agree with most of what was said above by Mal, FC and Luca and Id like to add a few extras. As far as taste is concerned, Jim Schulman and Ken Fox did a side by side comparison of two Cimbali Juniors, one fitted with a vibe and one with a rotary and found no systematic difference in taste. Thats as close as youll probably get to sorting out this question.

                However, it is true that the vibe pump can be loud (depending on its environment) and may not offer proper pressure regulation if relying on the factory setup. Most home machines have some form of overpressure releif valve. While they are not designed for pressure regulation, they can be used for this. This was the way the brew pressure on the vibe Cimbali Junior was set in the comparison above. However, out of the box, most machines are not set up for this and consequently can brew at pressures up to 12 bar. I found this in a Silvia I bought last year, when I compared it to my pressure modded Gaggia Classic. The Gaggia could produce thick creamy espresso, compared to the thin Silvia extraction (ristretto pours using a double basket, ie 30 ml in 30 sec). This is precisely the region where the vibe pump will produce excess pressure if not regulated in some way. Furthermore, the humble vibe pump is only just capable of providing a single group with the requisite flow rate and pressure. If the pump is also attached to a boiler autofill sensor for a HX machine, if the autofill engages during a shot, the pressure will drop dramatically. In contrast a rotary has no trouble handling this. So at the end of the day, if the pressure relief valve is set by someone who knows what theyre doing, a vibe pump can produce a very stable pressre platform (see my pressure profiles on the Faema Family thread).

                Now the rotary has ample capacity to handle a single group and the pressure wont be upset if the boiler autofills during a shot. However, the pressure bypass is usually set at 9 bar gauge pressure. That means that if you plumb it in, youll have to reduce the bypass setting as the total pressure will be 9 bar plus the line pressure. This is no drama if fitted by a technician. If you do it yourself, youll need either a brew pressure gauge on the machine or a pressure reading portafilter. Once thats accomplished, the rotary will maintain a constant pressure over any flow rate you choose way beyond reason (as its a high capacity pump). However it has the minuses that Luca mentioned. It really should be plumbed in as most require some back pressure to operate. That said, if youre buying a machine to fill a gap in a kitchen and you dont mind drilling some holes in your bench, then its a great way to go to get nice quiet operation.

                So I think the bottom line is that a rotary pump is more a convenience thing. A plumbed in machine is nice in that you dont have to fill in reservoirs and empty drip trays. Its also usually considerably quieter to run making more of a hum than a rattle. However in terms of taste quality, I believe it has all been said above.

                Cheers,

                Mark.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

                  so there you have it.

                  Just a thought: If I take the vibe pump out of my machine, to install it under the bench, in a well insulated box (to minimise the noise) ... will it still work ok? Will it still suck water out of the reservoir? Will it still provide the right pressure???

                  Just curious.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

                    mattyj,

                    Dan Kehn did that to his La Valentina/Diadema Jnr. See below photo.
                    Not too sure about water supply though...? ie machines reservoir or mains or a water bottle setup.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

                      tHE WAy IT IS SET UP IN THE PHOTO ABAVE WOULD APPEAR TO INDICATE (OOPS there goes the caps lock again) the thing is connectd to the mains.....although thats not how I would do it...I think my way is better ;D, and it looks like whoever they are, theyre still trying to work out the best way but havent got there yet......... !!!


                      Matty to answer your question, there is no reason why what you suggest shouldnt work just fine in terms of having the vibe pump suck from the original resevoir in the machine OR, to have it suck from a container placed next to the pump under bench or on the floor directly below....thats basically how vending machines operate / vibe pump sucking from a container in the bottom compartment (basically at floor level) of the cabinet the machine sits on...

                      Regardz,
                      FC.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

                        FC,

                        Any chance you would offer a slightly more detailed solution / best method for externalising a vibe pump?

                        Have you had cause to perform such a transplant?

                        Cheers mate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

                          hey framey, thanks for that.

                          Id actually seen the photo before ... but that was ages ago. Ive been kind of thinking it would be cool to nick one of those water cooler bottles from work, and use that as an under the bench reservoir. Less refilling! And theres a few hidden holes under the expobar body that seem just perfect for running lines through ... Ill have to pull it all apart one day and have a closer look.

                          Ive already drilled a hole in the drip tray and built a drain, that runs down to a 9 litre container ... it works well, but in hindsight, its a bit of overkill for what it is ... heavy brass plumbing bits etc. And my silicone sealing job is a bit messy ...

                          I guess the two main things I want to change on my expobar (for now) is the pump noise (hence the post above) and the reservoir refilling. A common thing on all vibe pump/non plumbed in domestic machines!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

                            oh, and thanks FC!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

                              Furthermore, the humble vibe pump is only just capable of providing a single group with the requisite flow rate and pressure. If the pump is also attached to a boiler autofill sensor for a HX machine, if the autofill engages during a shot, the pressure will drop dramatically.
                              Hi Sparky,

                              Regarding the first half of your statement above..... I have not experienced this after running several tests with my Mokita and Ulka Pump. In short, the pump is able to supply at a constant rate up until such time as the OPV cracks open and starts to bleed water back to the reservoir. I have found though, that if the water from the group and the OPV is collected into the same container at the same time, the actual water volume in total is unchanged, e.g. 100ml flow per 10 seconds. Of course, as the OPV starts to operate so then does the water volume through the Group decrease.

                              Regarding the second half of your statement...... This would certainly be true if the flow to the Boiler from the Auto-Fill system was not controlled via some form of restriction or throttling that was proportional to the flow capacity of the pump rating. Alternatively, Im sure that some simple logic would be installed to ensure that the Boiler could not be filled during a pour otherwise, as you say, the brew pressure would fall away to almost nothing and I cant imagine that a well respected espresso machine manufacturer would design a system to operate in this way. It just defeats the purpose of buying a high quality HX machine to brew high quality espresso... doesnt add up :-?

                              Cheers,
                              Mal.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X