Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • lucinda
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Aaaaah drunken posting Wushoes ;D I hope you have had a sleep by now and your head doesnt hurt to much :

    I have always thought that plumbing in a machine would be great, except for Adelaides awful awful water requiring us to use filtered or rain water.

    Also, if you decide to sell the house and move to another what do you do? Leave the machine behind to new owners who may or may not appreciate it or take it with you leaving behind the ugly pipes etc?

    I must be a tad hungover myself to be thinking of these things at this point in time

    Leave a comment:


  • Wushoes
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    wow....im wasted but still on CS .lol...just got home and bored.

    anywho...arent there rotary non-plumb machines like the cimbali junior and iberital lanna?

    =]

    Leave a comment:


  • Omniryx
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Sorry to come in late here. Something to keep in mind is that a vibratory pump is noisier in itself, not simply because it causes the housing to vibrate. So if you mount it under the cabinet or in some other external location you will--unless that location is very well insulated--have more noise than with a similarly-mounted rotary.

    Who could ask for a quieter home machine than the Vetrano? The loudest thing I hear with mine is the movement of water through the group.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fresh_Coffee
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Re:"........ I guess simultaneous boiler auto-filling and brewing is pretty rare, so not worth a little bit of engineering......"

    Korreket!

    regardz,
    FC.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparky
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Originally posted by Mal link=1142233387/15#20 date=1142516380

    No worries Mark ,

    I understand all the pump characteristics youve explained above by the way. It seems really cheap for a manufacturer, to not install the simple, prerequisite logic that would make Boiler Filling on a Vibe Pump system a non-event. It would be so simple and straight forward to do. Oh well, never mind.... Ill wait until I have my own HX machine to play with one day :P, and look into the possible options at that time.... thats a ways off yet unfortunately ,

    Mal.
    Hi Mal,

    I knew you understood pumps. I was just clarifying where I was coming from. I agree, such a simple additional circuit would be easy to implement. The Brewtus (at least in the US) has a brew element priority logic to prevent both elements switching on at the same time. But thats a more immediate and constant problem. I guess simultaneous boiler auto-filling and brewing is pretty rare, so not worth a little bit of engineering.

    Cheers,

    Mark.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Originally posted by Sparky link=1142233387/15#16 date=1142479034
    Maybe youve identified a design niche, Mal

    Cheers,

    Mark.
    No worries Mark ,

    I understand all the pump characteristics youve explained above by the way. It seems really cheap for a manufacturer, to not install the simple, prerequisite logic that would make Boiler Filling on a Vibe Pump system a non-event. It would be so simple and straight forward to do. Oh well, never mind.... Ill wait until I have my own HX machine to play with one day :P, and look into the possible options at that time.... thats a ways off yet unfortunately ,

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparky
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Correction: There is indeed a flow restrictor in the boiler fill path (which makes sense, as an unrestricted rotary can provide a huge flow). For the poor old vibe, the jet doesnt provide enough load to prevent the boiler fill spoiling the flow to the group.

    Leave a comment:


  • mattyj
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    1 litre in 30 seconds ... thats a big, watery shot!

    Leave a comment:


  • Javaphile
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    What Ive done with my machine (a 2 group Cimbali M-28 Basic) is to adjust the autofill sensor so it doesnt kick the pump on until the water level in the boiler is down to a third of the way between the min and max fill levels and then follow a set regimen when pulling a shot:
    • Fill the cup(s) from the hot water tap while purging the group for 13 seconds
    • Weigh and grind the coffee
    • Purge the group for 8 seconds
    • Dose and tamp the grounds in the PF
    • Empty the cups of the hot water
    • Pull the shot
    • Measure out the milk and froth is while the shot is being pulled
    • Wipe the steam arm clean with a wet towel
    • Make the drink(s)
    • Rinse the steaming pitcher and put back in fridge
    • Knock out the puck and clean the group and PF (a full brushing and backflush with just water)
    • Fill a shot pitcher from the hot water tap and purge the steam arm into it and then use the water to wash away any debris left on the drain tray from the group cleaning
    • Use the manual fill lever to bring the boiler level back up to just below maximum


    Following this regimen the pump will never kick on in the middle of a shot here.

    Even if I forgot to refill the boiler after the previous pull the boiler has enough capacity to get at least 2 and usually 3 cycles of this before the level falls enough for the autofill to kick in. If I forgot to refill the boiler at the end of the previous cycle I have to shorten my purges by a bit on the next one to compensate as it does affect the temp of the group and hence the shot.

    While doing all this is not required, as the Cimbali has more than enough power to fill the boiler while pulling shots and steaming milk all with the boiler temp never coming close to falling out of the green zone, doing so (along with precise measurements of the coffee used and a consistent tamp pressure) gives me exact reproducibility of the conditions for each shot allowing me to pull consistently great (dare I say God?) shots with all the variables being kept to an absolute minimum.

    Obviously youll need to come up with your own series of steps as every machine and the way its used is different, but if you get into a set regimen for pulling a shot and adjust your autofill sensor to an appropriate level you can avoid ever having the pump kick on in the middle of a pull.

    Java "Its all about consistency" phile

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparky
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Originally posted by Mal link=1142233387/0#14 date=1142432362
    Furthermore, the humble vibe pump is only just capable of providing a single group with the requisite flow rate and pressure. If the pump is also attached to a boiler autofill sensor for a HX machine, if the autofill engages during a shot, the pressure will drop dramatically.
    Hi Sparky,

    Regarding the first half of your statement above..... I have not experienced this after running several tests with my Mokita and Ulka Pump. In short, the pump is able to supply at a constant rate up until such time as the OPV cracks open and starts to bleed water back to the reservoir. I have found though, that if the water from the group and the OPV is collected into the same container at the same time, the actual water volume in total is unchanged, e.g. 100ml flow per 10 seconds. Of course, as the OPV starts to operate so then does the water volume through the Group decrease.

    Regarding the second half of your statement...... This would certainly be true if the flow to the Boiler from the Auto-Fill system was not controlled via some form of restriction or throttling that was proportional to the flow capacity of the pump rating. Alternatively, Im sure that some simple logic would be installed to ensure that the Boiler could not be filled during a pour otherwise, as you say, the brew pressure would fall away to almost nothing and I cant imagine that a well respected espresso machine manufacturer would design a system to operate in this way. It just defeats the purpose of buying a high quality HX machine to brew high quality espresso... doesnt add up :-?

    Cheers,
    Mal.
    Hi Mal,

    Both the Ulka and Fluid-o-tech pumps produce a flow that is inversely related to the pressure. It just so happens that for a flow corresponding to 60 ml in 30 sec (or thereabouts) these pumps produce about 9 bar of pressure. For a flow of 30 ml in 30 sec, they are closer to 12 bar (so cant really make good ristrettos or singles). Therefore it is often suggested to set the OPV to 9 bar (or thereabouts) so that you get a 9 bar brewing pressure for flow rates ranging from 0 to 60 ml in 30 sec. At a faster flow rate, the pressure will drop according to the inverse relationship mentioned. Thats what I mean when I say that the pump is only just capable of the requisite performance. In contrast a rotary pump will maintain 9 bar (if set there) for flows ranging from 0 to 1 litre in 30 sec, which well and truely covers the useful flow range for making espresso and related drinks.

    As MattyJ mentioned, simultaneous brewing and boiler autofilling is pretty rare. I have found no flow restrictors in my BZ35 in the boiler filling circuit (a light commercial $3500 machine). I also have never experienced simultaneous brewing and autofilling, but I have experienced simultaneous flushing and autofilling where the flowrate through the group drops to nothing. While brew path priority logic may be realtively simple to implement, it seems that many machines dont have it. Thats why quite a few people complain about vibe pumps in the US. In the case of a rotary pump, it can easily handle both tasks and the 2-way valve probably provides enough flow restriction to maintain a constant brew pressure, so such logic isnt necessary. So the lack of a brew path priority logic circuit might just reflect that most machines are scaled down commercial machines using off-the-shelf commecial components.

    Maybe youve identified a design niche, Mal

    Cheers,

    Mark.

    Leave a comment:


  • mattyj
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Originally posted by Mal link=1142233387/0#14 date=1142432362
    ...If the pump is also attached to a boiler autofill sensor for a HX machine, if the autofill engages during a shot, the pressure will drop dramatically.
    Regarding the second half of your statement...... This would certainly be true if the flow to the Boiler from the Auto-Fill system was not controlled via some form of restriction or throttling that was proportional to the flow capacity of the pump rating. Alternatively, Im sure that some simple logic would be installed to ensure that the Boiler could not be filled during a pour otherwise, as you say, the brew pressure would fall away to almost nothing and I cant imagine that a well respected espresso machine manufacturer would design a system to operate in this way. It just defeats the purpose of buying a high quality HX machine to brew high quality espresso... doesnt add up :-?
    Youd think so huh. But it happens. Not frequently (its happened to me once in the last 7 months), but it still happens. I guess if youre pulling lots of shots, theres no real need for a boiler refill, except for the evaporation thing. So it wont happen. But if youre pulling shots, steaming lots of milk and pulling more shots, all in succession, it may happen. Like I said, its happened to me once in the last 7 months.

    Initiating a boiler refill before pulling a shot (leave a minute or so for everything to recover) seems to do the trick ... like pre-heating your cups a minute or two before pulling your shot, that way you trigger a boiler refill.

    I get the impression from some of Mark Princes reviews on coffeegeek that pretty much every HX machine hes tested doesnt have some simple logic thing to prevent it (expobars, ecms, vibiemmes etc etc). Its funny to watch though ... a normal shot, flowing nicely, the pump changes pitch and suddenly the streams thin out dramatically. You stop the shot, but the pump keeps running ...

    I guess the solution is to be aware of the state of your boiler ... if you know it might probably need to take in a few mills shortly, run the hot water tap, or the steam for a second or two, to trigger it off. Then pull your shot. Ive sometimes thought of starting a stopwatch when my machine does a refill, letting it sit idle, and stopping the watch at the next refill. Im sure its probably 30 mins to an hour, from my days off when the machine has been on all day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Furthermore, the humble vibe pump is only just capable of providing a single group with the requisite flow rate and pressure. If the pump is also attached to a boiler autofill sensor for a HX machine, if the autofill engages during a shot, the pressure will drop dramatically.
    Hi Sparky,

    Regarding the first half of your statement above..... I have not experienced this after running several tests with my Mokita and Ulka Pump. In short, the pump is able to supply at a constant rate up until such time as the OPV cracks open and starts to bleed water back to the reservoir. I have found though, that if the water from the group and the OPV is collected into the same container at the same time, the actual water volume in total is unchanged, e.g. 100ml flow per 10 seconds. Of course, as the OPV starts to operate so then does the water volume through the Group decrease.

    Regarding the second half of your statement...... This would certainly be true if the flow to the Boiler from the Auto-Fill system was not controlled via some form of restriction or throttling that was proportional to the flow capacity of the pump rating. Alternatively, Im sure that some simple logic would be installed to ensure that the Boiler could not be filled during a pour otherwise, as you say, the brew pressure would fall away to almost nothing and I cant imagine that a well respected espresso machine manufacturer would design a system to operate in this way. It just defeats the purpose of buying a high quality HX machine to brew high quality espresso... doesnt add up :-?

    Cheers,
    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • mattyj
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    oh, and thanks FC!

    Leave a comment:


  • mattyj
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    hey framey, thanks for that.

    Id actually seen the photo before ... but that was ages ago. Ive been kind of thinking it would be cool to nick one of those water cooler bottles from work, and use that as an under the bench reservoir. Less refilling! And theres a few hidden holes under the expobar body that seem just perfect for running lines through ... Ill have to pull it all apart one day and have a closer look.

    Ive already drilled a hole in the drip tray and built a drain, that runs down to a 9 litre container ... it works well, but in hindsight, its a bit of overkill for what it is ... heavy brass plumbing bits etc. And my silicone sealing job is a bit messy ...

    I guess the two main things I want to change on my expobar (for now) is the pump noise (hence the post above) and the reservoir refilling. A common thing on all vibe pump/non plumbed in domestic machines!

    Leave a comment:


  • Framey
    replied
    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    FC,

    Any chance you would offer a slightly more detailed solution / best method for externalising a vibe pump?

    Have you had cause to perform such a transplant?

    Cheers mate.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X