EM6900 Reliability

[DrT]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

Hmmm, not sure of the average psi contained within however this varies between person to person and quite considerably.

While I like the smell of coffee, I like the sound of bagpipes. That of course wont help my pucks, but my coffee machine wont help my playing. In the ideal world though.....

Yep, it can create steam - from the players ears if the damn things are not played correctly !!

DrT

[telemaster]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

I still wonder about electronics and steam powered devices. An espresso technician commented to me that the most common failure he has seen is in machines which have electronics which can be affected by steam- especially in superautomatic machines where steam gets into circuit boards etc.
I also thought there were problems with temp stability with thermoblocks due to the very low thermal mass- one for Sparky? I thought thats why large boilers were of advantage!
Basic, solid well built things can be things of beauty- an E61 still works (yes I know there are some electronics)
Brett

[mattyj]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

but is an e61 really cutting edge, or trying anything new?

sorry ... just coming into the conversation here ... but its like espresso development hit 1961, and stopped there.

sure, there have been some innovations (dual boiler machines, PIDs, saturated group heads ... and oh, lookout, stainless steel saturated groupheads), but not many. espresso used to be cutting edge, is it now going nowhere?

[JavaB]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

but is an e61 really cutting edge, or trying anything new?

sorry ... just coming into the conversation here ... but its like espresso development hit 1961, and stopped there.

Talking about developments in espresso machines is like developments in the making of champagne (both fine drinks with a long tradition!)

There have been a lot of development in coffee machines (you notice I didnt say espresso machines) - mainly for the home market as there have also been in the making of sparkling white wines (as opposed to Moet champagne which has remained unaltered since?????)

The original formula (hardware, pressures etc for espresso - grape variety, region yeast and equipment for Moet) was pretty damn good in both cases. It defined the standard.

Most changes made in both industries are cost driven - how can we produce coffee/ champagne more cheaply and sell it to more people. The changes ARE NOT driven by how can we do it better.....

To do that would take a mindset change - quality ahead of profit - and thats just not going to happen.....

In espresso land some manufaturers are trying to redefine what good crema is - why - because their new fangled, elcheapo method cant produce the goods - so lets move the goal posts!!! If they argued that the new "taste" was better- and could prove it other than by marketing hype - then they might get somewhere....

Until then Im happy that some things have retained the old quality tradition.... even if it is 60s vintage..... until something which is actually better (not just cheaper) comes along.

EDIT:

And in both cases the skill of the practitioner, then the ingredients and last the "hardware" is the order of importance in the production of the magnificent end product

[Dimal]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

I still wonder about electronics and steam powered devices. An espresso technician commented to me that the most common failure he has seen is in machines which have electronics which can be affected by steam- especially in superautomatic machines where steam gets into circuit boards etc.

Hi Brett,

This isnt really a fault with electronic systems, its more a case of bad design, e.g. one wouldnt site a 500KV 1,000 MVA Power Transformer in the middle of the main street in downtown Metropolis under a decorative fountain... well, one shouldnt site electronic systems where they will be directly exposed to steam, excessively high temperatures, corrosive atmospheres, et al.

Electronic devices are, by their intrinsic nature and design, about the MOST reliable recently developed technology that exists.... there are no moving parts (electrons dont count as parts, well, outside of quantum mechanics), and provided they are not exposed to stress, of any kind outside their published data and specs... they will for all intents and purposes last forever. My entire working life was spent, in one way or another, with the design, testing, installation, commissioning and maintenance of equipment containing electronics in some of the most horrendous and physically challenging environments that one could possibly imagine. In these scenarios, it was rarely an electronic device that let us down, rather, it was most often electro-mechanical devices that have discrete moving parts that ultimately wear out that caused the most trouble, and usually the most difficulty in attempts at isolating the problem(s) that caused failure.

There, I feel better now that Ive got that off my chest ,

Mal.

[marcstolk]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

Just on this "Electronic" edge, its all about quality.

About 4- 5 years ago, a certain well known "Name brand" PC maker decided to go cheap on the capacitors on the mainboard. And all of a sudden blue screens of death (BSOD) was a very common problem with these PCs. Turns out the capacitors around the CPU were "bulging". There wasnt a recall (Although it should be been), it was an understood issue with a particular model.

My point is, quality is still quality and bad quality is still bad quality - even in Electronics!

Its like Aluminum portafillers... most are cheap and flimsey and have no "Feel" about them. HOWEVER, Aluminum on Aircraft is very strong and durable (For obvious reasons).

Graded Stainless steel is another example.

Anyway... enough rant.. :-)

Marc

[JavaB]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

Just on this "Electronic" edge, its all about quality.
My point is, quality is still quality and bad quality is still bad quality - even in Electronics!

Technology has improved without question - but why do items fail so fast?

Manufacturers can use the new technology to make things better or cheaper (or somewhere between the two) - but almost in every case theey choose cheaper (because we, the consumers want everything and want to pay next to nothing to have it).

Look at power tools, large screen TVs, computers and dare I say it , coffee machines.

Electronics are involved in so many items today, and the quality of components and build varies so much - from mil spec to just working! The just working bits are far cheaper (so they get used most of the time).

Even the printed circuit boards in commercial espresso machines were once coated with a varnish layer over the copper tracks to protect against the effects of water and steam causing them to corrode and short - this is no longer done as it is an additional step in manufacture (and cost)!

So whilst I agree that electronics could and should be reliable, cost cutting has made this no longer true. Electro mechanical bits do fail (basically wear out - also sooner than they should because of poor quality).

But as the probability of failure increases with the square of the number of bits which could fail - a printed circuit board with lots of relatively low cost components, poorly built and in a hostile environment is a sure bet to reduce reliability.....

Id rather have something with fewer bits of higher quality e.g. a semi automatic coffee machine compared to a full auto, or especially a super auto (unless the manufacturing process for these devices becomes focussed on quality/longevity rather than cost)

[marcstolk]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

JavaB - Good points... its cheap enough that they send Manufacturing to China, but using cheaper parts - thats another thing.....

Another Aussie Manufacturing plant now going to Asia - Wont mention the company but it is over the news...Is our labour that expensive or is it corporate greed??... Hang on, does China and the like have Workplace regulations and unions?? Ahh... I see the link >

[Javaphile]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

Just on this "Electronic" edge, its all about quality.

About 4- 5 years ago, a certain well known "Name brand" PC maker decided to go cheap on the capacitors on the mainboard. And all of a sudden blue screens of death (BSOD) was a very common problem with these PCs. Turns out the capacitors around the CPU were "bulging". There wasnt a recall (Although it should be been), it was an understood issue with a particular model.

Actually this was not a result of a manufacturer going cheap but a case of industrial espionage backfiring.

The company that sold these caps stole the recipe from a Japanese company and undercut their price with the same performance specs. Unfortunately for them the Japanese company had left a key ingredient out of the documentation that was stolen, just in case of such an eventuality.

The missing ingredient allowed the caps to initially work but then caused them to fail over time and ended up spelling the death toll for the offending company.

Many of the big motherboard manufacturers were affected but only one offered to fix, Abit <not Asus>.

It was mostly high-end motherboards that were affected as these caps were considered to be high-end components and not the cheapos used on low-end boards. I have 3 dual processor servers here that had these caps on them and failed that were repaired by Asus.

Abit <not Asus> was the only company that publicly admitted to using these caps and offered to replace them. It was well known that other big companies used them but not a one of them would publicly admit to it and fix the problem, even when outed by others.

Java "Gotta love a good backfire!" phile

[JavaB]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

Actually this was not a result of a manufacturer going cheap but a case of industrial espionage backfiring.

The company that sold these caps stole the recipe from a Japanese company and undercut their price with the same performance specs.

Gday Javaphile....

Actually Id have to agree to disagree with you on that!

The "reputable" board manufacturers saw an opportunity to save a few pennies - just like all organisations today do- and bought the inferior items BECAUSE THEY WERE CHEAPER (Im sure the original caps from Japan were available - just more expensive !

Pity they were not at their usual quality level.... so they stuffed the clients for the sake of their company bean counters, profit for the shareholders etc etc....

So IMHO it IS the result of many manufacturers going cheap (and then only one was willing to both admit it - and then do something about it!)

Java "Gotta love a good backfire!" phile

Amen to that,,,, the companies saving the pennies deserved it, pity about their poor customers

By the way, had the chance to peer under the bonnet of a just released commercial high volume coffee machine...... Very dissappointed with the quality... Im sure it wont be around (or certainly not working very well) in 20 years

The La Cimbalis that we have are FAR FAR better built.
;D

[marcstolk]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

Java "Got my finger on the pulse" phile

[Dimal]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

Yep,

Agree with most of what has been said above, but in nearly all the cases exampled, the crux of the problem is more one of design and specification, not electronics. Improperly specd components of any kind, whether they be electronic or mechanical, will NOT do the job intended for any significant amount of time.

The problem is as has been indicated, the bottom line and the people who muscle others to toe that line.....

Cheers,
Mal.

[Javaphile]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

...bought the inferior items BECAUSE THEY WERE CHEAPER...

Pity they were not at their usual quality level.... so they stuffed the clients for the sake of their company bean counters, profit for the shareholders etc etc....

So IMHO it IS the result of many manufacturers going cheap (and then only one was willing to both admit it - and then do something about it!)

The initial purchase of the caps was just good business sense. Not a stuffing of the customers for the sake of a buck. As far as the motherboard manufacturers were aware these were the same spec caps that they had been using. They were not bought as a lower grade replacement in order to make more money. Their specifications were identical to the previously used manufacturers caps.

If you are offered the identical item (identical in all regards) from 2 different companies you wouldnt remain competitive in the marketplace very long if you bought the more expensive one.

So I would have to say that at least as far as the original purchase of the caps are concerned it was not because the companies were looking to make a buck at their customers expense. It was purely a sound business decision.

Where these companies did show their greed and willingness to stiff their customers for the sake of a buck was when they then failed to support their product when the hither before unknown problem with the caps reared its ugly head. That was when they showed their true cheapness and willingness to stuff it to everybody. > > >

By the way, had the chance to peer under the bonnet of a just released commercial high volume coffee machine...... Very dissappointed with the quality... Im sure it wont be around (or certainly not working very well) in 20 years

The La Cimbalis that we have are FAR FAR better built.
;D

Amen to that! Theyll be around longer than we are in all probility!

Java "Loves his Cimbali (But Ill bet yall never guessed that!)!" phile

[Javaphile]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

Java "Got my finger on the pulse" phile

/me feels for his pulse

Oh sh!t, the pulse is getting weak! Time for another cuppa! ;D

Java "Powered by caffeine!" phile

[telemaster]

Re: EM6900 Reliability

The Luddite Returns Part Two!
I know its all about making stuff affordable and also about raising the bar performance wise, but very often in manufacturing the making affordable tends to equal cutting corners. It appears that components and quality control both suffer. Personally Id rather something simple in design but robustly made. It will last longer and it also allows the user that little bit more control.
Interestingly in a pretty unrelated area- guitar amplifiers, I had a run of amps in the early 90s by big name makers which used printed circuit boards which were very unreliable. I changed to a 40 year old handwired (point to point) amp which not only had worked for a long long time, but would probably work for a long while yet. It was also easily serviceable (by me) and easily tweaked" allowing improved or different performance.
Now you could say that a well made military spec printed circuit board amp could be equally as good, but except for a few boutique makers, new technology usually goes with cost cutting. So technological improvements are nobbled by poor quality control caused by cost cutting.
So what do a few boutique builders do? They use new ideas with old point to point technology- great sound, easy servicing and great reliability- but not cheap!
I suppose its another case of horses for courses.
Hopefully its just a time of transition,
Brett