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La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weight

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  • #16
    Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

    Originally posted by mauricem link=1155104339/0#14 date=1155167075

    is it a rotary or vibe pump?
    Yep the M20 series use rotary pumps.... and boy are they expensive if you damage one!! ($315 +GST from Coffee Parts)

    You could prob replace it with a procon (which would not need mains pressure) but the "as supplied" one does - Cimbali are very specific. Not sure if you would have to get a modified motor coupling - or a different motor?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

      Originally posted by JavaB link=1155104339/15#15 date=1155167623
      Originally posted by mauricem link=1155104339/0#14 date=1155167075

      is it a rotary or vibe pump?  
      Yep the M20 series use rotary pumps.... and boy are they expensive if you damage one!! ($315 +GST from Coffee Parts)

       
      maybe Im confused but I thought the M20 was the model number for the junior and my plumbed jnr definitley has a vibe pump fitted.

      I know current model Jnrs/M21s all use rotary pumps but mine is 6 years old and the one Zakal is looking at is 16 years old.

      OK, just found this quote from a cimbali rep on homebarista
      <http://www.home-barista.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1661&start=20>

      "For instance, the old M-20 Junior DT/1 used a vibratory pump to reach brew pressure"

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

        The M20 series is about 16 years old and came in 1,2,3 and I think there was even a 4 group.

        They were all designed for cafe use...... and they are beautiful machines. (I have the 2 group version)

        Im assuming that this really is the "old " machine and not a new Junior and that the single group had the same pump- maybe the 1 group did use a vib- but I thought they were all the same.

        An old M20 single sold for $699 on Ebay a couple of days ago.



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        • #19
          Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

          Yeah that was the one, unfortunately it turns out that it was made in 1983, some 23yrs ago, and not the 15yrs advertised.

          Additionally, im told it was a manual and not a semi-auto as advertised.

          And it leaked from around the portafilter, hardly something youd expect from a machine supposedly serviced a few weeks ago.

          I consider those misrepresentations to render any contract for purchase void, and now will not be buying that machine.

          So i guess the freight issue is now also redundant, and now the search for a suitable machine continues.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

            Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1155104339/15#18 date=1155184858
            And it leaked from around the portafilter, hardly something youd expect from a machine supposedly serviced a few weeks ago.
            Gee, that sure is a lot of "lies" that were told when selling the unit!

            Just out of interest, the Cafe owner I bought mine from had it serviced a short time before sale. He told me that when I said that I was going to replace the group seals etc.....

            Well I replaced them anyhow-

            very difficult to get the group apart (grinds and coffee oils) and the - normally soft - seal was brittle (even chipped round the edges). I found a few other probs and fixed them as well. Spoke to him some time later (to warn him not to use the same service firm)! >

            He said he had been charged for the replacement gaskets etc.... and they had charged him several times the price I paid for the same bits from Coffee Parts... AND HADNT REPLACED THEM!!!

            So there are shonky service organisations out there - as well as sellers.

            Best of luck next time.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

              Yeah, well im not really too fussed as to who said what to whom (whether it was a shonky service guy saying he replaced it, or no service guy at all), as far as im concerned, im just prepared to leave it where it is and forget about it.

              Im just glad i sent someone around to check it out before it was paid for, and in the hands of a courier, cos then i woudlnt have known if it was always leaking, or if the couriers had damaged it or something.
              This way i know exactly, and before its too late.

              Oh well.
              Might have to stick to machines that are a bit more local so i can check them out myself in future.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1155104339/15#18 date=1155184858
                Yeah that was the one, unfortunately it turns out that it was made in 1983, some 23yrs ago, and not the 15yrs advertised.

                Additionally, im told it was a manual and not a semi-auto as advertised.

                And it leaked from around the portafilter, hardly something youd expect from a machine supposedly serviced a few weeks ago.

                I consider those misrepresentations to render any contract for purchase void, and now will not be buying that machine.

                So i guess the freight issue is now also redundant, and now the search for a suitable machine continues.
                Are you sure of the terms being used? A Manual machine has a lever you pull to force water through the puck. A Semi-auto has a switch to turn the pump on and off.

                If its item 130011805840 then its a semi-auto as labeled, not a manual.

                If the only problem with the machine is leaking around the portafilter Id say you got it for a great price. A new gasket for the grouphead is only a couplea bucks.

                These machines are highly sought after here in the US. One rarely comes on the market and when it does its snapped up instantly, usually at an outragous price. Ive seen them go for well over twice the price you paid.

                Java "You might want to reconsider" phile
                Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                  oops yeah sorry, didnt mean manual, meant that you had to turn the water off manually. hehe.
                  Is what im talking about volumetric?


                  I think given the amateur status of everyone using the machine, we would have to draw the line there, as ive actually been talking everyone down from a super-auto, and if they arnt able to use pre-set volumes, i think they might torpedo the whole idea.

                  Either way, on that point it was validly advertised, and i would retract any contention i had with that point.

                  However what worries is me more than anything is not the age of the machine, as i know they are designed to last for ages, but im worried about why there was a need to make things up anyway.

                  Its nowhere near the advertised age, and given the type of machine, if stated at the start, it wouldnt be that big of a deal.

                  I had actually heard three ages of the machine: 15yrs from the ad, 23yrs from the stamp/plate on the machine, and apparently the guy told the person i sent that they had owned it for 18years....which is longer than the machine existed.


                  However its not merely the leak that caused me concern, as i guessed at teh same cause as you did, but the fact they said it was serviced recently, which by rights should have fixed this. Suggesting the machine hasnt been serviced regularly, or at the very least, serviced in a haphazard way for some time which ends up in basically the same result for the condition of the machine.


                  Its a bit of a complicated web, although if i was more sure of my ability to pull one apart and rebuild it, i might be tempted to take it anyway.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                    Originally posted by Javaphile link=1155104339/15#21 date=1155196273


                    These machines are highly sought after here in the US. One rarely comes on the market and when it does its snapped up instantly, usually at an outragous price. Ive seen them go for well over twice the price you paid.

                    Java "You might want to reconsider" phile
                    When you say "these machines" are your referring to cimbali jnrs generally or old Cimbalis that may have become collectable due to their age or rarity?

                    I know Cimablis are relatively more expensive in the US compared to here in Aus.

                    Maurice "Wondering if i should take "jnr" on a one way trip to the land of javaphile " 

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                      Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1155104339/15#22 date=1155204282
                      oops yeah sorry, didnt mean manual, meant that you had to turn the water off manually. hehe.
                      Is what im talking about volumetric?


                      I think given the amateur status of everyone using the machine, we would have to draw the line there, as ive actually been talking everyone down from a super-auto, and if they arnt able to use pre-set volumes, i think they might torpedo the whole idea.
                      The M20 I have is volumetric- Cimbali usually call those models Dosatron. They are regarded as "automatic" as they control the water temperature, water pressure and volume of water delivered.

                      Given the users you mentioned above, Id be concerned about any HX machine - volumetric or not.

                      After a short time idle the water in the heat exchanger gets to the boiler temp..... If you load, lock and push the button you get water at 120C or thereabouts into the coffee grounds.. :-[

                      Result. Burnt coffee -YUK >

                      You need to do a "cooling regime" - discharge water through the group before you use it - just enough to cool the path to brew temp - then wait a short time - lock the group in and hit the brew switch.

                      If you are making coffees all the time you dont need this proceedure, or if you are making one just after someone else has....

                      If you are concerned about them being able (or wanting) to turn the water flow off when they have extracted enough, then this cooling would, to me at least, mean they would have an even bigger problem.

                      HX machines are fantastic, but you need to have - or be prepared to develop - expertise in their use.....

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                        yeah i was aware of the flushing required with the HXs, but on a plumbed in machine i really dont see that as being as big of an issue as someone turning the flow on, turning their back for a bit while they do something else, and coming back to an overflowing cup.

                        And also, i can rationalise the HX procedure by saying that the HX is a better system...how do i explain having to sit there watching the volume of water flow as being an advantage?

                        And like i said before, its a matter of drawing the line somewhere, ive got them off the superautos, thats the most important thing, dont want to overload them with too much at once.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                          Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1155104339/15#22 date=1155204282
                          oops yeah sorry, didnt mean manual, meant that you had to turn the water off manually. hehe.
                          Is what im talking about volumetric?
                          The 4 types of espresso machines and their defining characteristics are:
                          • Manual - A lever operated piston pulled by hand.
                          • Semi-automatic - An electric pump manually turned on and off with a switch.
                          • Automatic - An electric pump that once activated by a single push of a button sends a set amount of water through the grouphead.
                          • Super-automatic - A single push of a button causes the beans to be ground, tamped, and brewed.


                          I think given the amateur status of everyone using the machine, we would have to draw the line there, as ive actually been talking everyone down from a super-auto, and if they arnt able to use pre-set volumes, i think they might torpedo the whole idea.
                          If they cant deal with watching the stream of extracted espresso and turning the pump off when it starts to blond how are they ever going to deal with all the intracicies of adjusting the grind, dosing correctly, and getting a proper tamp? Not to mention frothing milk properly.

                          I had actually heard three ages of the machine: 15yrs from the ad, 23yrs from the stamp/plate on the machine, and apparently the guy told the person i sent that they had owned it for 18years....which is longer than the machine existed.


                          However its not merely the leak that caused me concern, as i guessed at teh same cause as you did, but the fact they said it was serviced recently, which by rights should have fixed this. Suggesting the machine hasnt been serviced regularly, or at the very least, serviced in a haphazard way for some time which ends up in basically the same result for the condition of the machine.


                          Its a bit of a complicated web, although if i was more sure of my ability to pull one apart and rebuild it, i might be tempted to take it anyway.
                          I would always assume that any machine that has been in a commercial environment for more than 5 years is going to need to be disassembled for cleaning, descaling, and replacement of internal filters and jets in addition to dialing in its pressure.

                          Typically a full on-site servicing of an espresso machine involves back-flushing the head(s), checking the electrical and mechanical functioning of the machine, checking for leaks, and the replacement of external filters and the grouphead gasket, and thats it. Descaling if done at all is accomplished by putting some citric acid in the boiler by removing the overpressure safety valve, warming the boiler up, and after a few minutes draining it.

                          As a result when buying a used commercial machine the safest bet is to always assume that it will require at least a partial tear-down for a complete descaling of both the boiler/heating element and the heat exchanger, even if it has been regularly serviced over the years. Assumming anything else is just setting yourself up for headaches down the road.

                          The machine may very well have been serviced recently. With-out being told the specifics of what that servicing entailed, saying that a machine has been serviced is a meaningless statement.

                          This is why getting detailed specific information from a seller is so important.

                          Java "The Devil is in the details!" phile
                          Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                            Originally posted by mauricem link=1155104339/15#23 date=1155206753
                            When you say "these machines" are your referring to cimbali jnrs generally or old Cimbalis that may have become collectable due to their age or rarity?

                            I know Cimablis are relatively more expensive in the US compared to here in Aus.

                            Maurice "Wondering if i should take "jnr" on a one way trip to the land of javaphile "
                            Any single group commercial machine goes for a premium price here in the US due to all the home enthusiasts wanting one with Cimbalis topping the list for desirability.

                            I havent been watching the prices on them currently but back as recently as a year ago when I was keeping an eye out for a unit for a friend 2-group machines were selling for as little as $100USD while the single group commercial machines were usually up around $750USD with a Cimbali in good shape being able to fetch $1,000USD or even more. These prices are for recent (up too 25-30 years old) models with the older semi-autos fetching a higher price than the newer autos.

                            Machines made in the 1960s or earlier would be getting into the collectable classification and for them the sky is the limit for price.

                            Few home users have the space, power, and plumbing requirements for a commercial 2-group machine. As a result the larger commercial machines can be had for a song while the single group machines are in high demand among home users and so go for a much higher price. As an example I got a Cimbali M-52 super-auto that lists for $23,000USD for $35USD and my Cimbali M-28 2-group cost me $250 and included 2 Mazzer Super Jolly grinders.

                            Java "Likes high quality but not high prices" phile
                            Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                              Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1155104339/15#25 date=1155225745
                              yeah i was aware of the flushing required with the HXs, but on a plumbed in machine i really dont see that as being as big of an issue as someone turning the flow on, turning their back for a bit while they do something else, and coming back to an overflowing cup.

                              And also, i can rationalise the HX procedure by saying that the HX is a better system...how do i explain having to sit there watching the volume of water flow as being an advantage?
                              If theyre willing/able to put the effort into learning how to properly grind, dose, tamp, flush, and foam having to watch the extraction and turning the pump off when it starts to blond should be a no brainer. If theyre not willing/able to do that simple thing then Id give really high odds that theyll never get the rest of the procedures down to where they can consistantly make a good cuppa and theyd be better off sticking with a super-auto.

                              HXs whether semi-automatic or automatic not only require training in their and their peripherals use but attention to detail as well. If that attention is lacking so is the cuppa.

                              Java "Details, details, details!" phile
                              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                                Zakal1, how many "theys" are there?  If youre talking about only your partner, then there are plenty of households where only one person makes the coffee.  If youre talking about your children, thats different - if they are old enough to drink coffee then they are old enough to deal with a bit of technology (and will probably wind up teaching your partner).  If you are talking about "housemates" they can buy their own machines.....

                                I guess what Im saying is that Ive been watching you put a lot of time and effort into finding the right machine.  Since you are the one who seems to be going to all the trouble then you should get the machine that you want to have fun with and let your household sort it out from there.  You cant please everyone

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