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La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weight

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  • #31
    Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

    "they" would include my parents and older siblings (im kinda the one charged with research and purchase reccomendations hehe), and of course myself. Will probably be about 4-5 of us using the machine, although like you say, probably only 2 regularly.

    However another reason i wanted the a volumetric machine, was so i could try and work out some basic parameters for grind settings, dosing, tamping, that could be performed repeatedly with some degree of success by those who use the machine less, but for some reason need to make coffee.

    If it can eliminate water volume as a variable, its just one less thing that can be stuffed up.
    Although i think im going to have a bigger problem getting them to get teh dosing right at first anyway.

    But still, the fewer variables the better, from what i hear, those pre-set amounts can be adjusted anyway, so if i need semi-auto function, i can do that (i think).

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

      Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1155104339/30#30 date=1155280849

      But still, the fewer variables the better, from what i hear, those pre-set amounts can be adjusted anyway, so if i need semi-auto function, i can do that (i think).
      Agreed!

      Unfortunately mechines of the vintage you are looking at (like mine) only have preset amounts (and a manual start/stop function). So it can be used as a semi-auto as well if desired.

      Programmable volumes is a relatively recent innovation- and machines with this function will be expensive.

      Also a volumetric machine has a lot more electronics- meaning more prone to problems. If the circuit board in a Cimbali fails you are looking at many hundreds of dollars for a new board.... ( if you can get one!) compared to a few dollars for a switch in the semi autos.

      Many people stay away from fully autos for this reason- but Im prepared to take the risk (especially seeing my background is computer hardware and electronics)...

      If the board fails fails, I can always convert it to a semi auto 8-)

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

        With everything else being exactly identical each varietal will blond at a different volume.

        For the home user Coffee Snob a volumetric dosing machine is bells and whistles as they will be paying attention to the blonding point time and not the volume amount.

        In a busy commercial setting where the same bean/blend/roast is being brewed all the time is where volumetric dosing comes into its own.

        I think youre concentrating on something that really doesnt matter in the end and can actually be a very large detriment.

        The most common thing to break on the commercial machines is guess what. The touch pad and the brainbox, with repair costs of hundreds of dollars and a machine thats inoperable until theyre repaired. The machine youre looking at has neither. Its all mechanical switches and relays and as such is FAR less likely to suffer a break-down than a machine equipped with a volumetric dosing system.

        If I were offered 2 Cimbalis of the same model at the same price I would choose the semi-auto with the mechanical innards over the automatic with the electronic innards every time!!

        If the machine heats up to temp properly, and the auto-fill, switches, pressure relief relay, and pump have been verified to work (I assume the machine was seen running and these things checked as you know it leaks around the portafilter) and the only problem is the grouphead gasket needing replacement I think youll be hard pressed to find a better machine at the price it went for and youll be kicking yourself later if you pass on it. Especially as it appears that it is the full-blown commercial model (per a previous post it has a rotary pump and not a vib) and not the later lite model made for home use.

        This machine is one of the most sought after espresso machines ever made and one that most people can only ever dream about owning due to its (todays equivilent model pricing) $5,000USD price tag.

        It may be old tech but its tech thats built like a tank which will run forever and not kill your pocketbook repairing fancy electronics.

        Java "Think long and hard before you pass!" phile
        Toys! I must have new toys!!!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

          Yeah, its a good point, both about teh volumetrics and the machine.

          As ive said, its not teh age of teh machine, or even the semi-auto thing that bothers me, i dont trust the condition it could be in if the seller has been so loose with the truth on other aspects of it. You dont generally make things up in order to sell a great machine. Instead of the problems and inconsistencies i DID discover, im more worried about the ones that i havent. If i kick myself for letting it go, it wont be nearly as much as ill be kicking myself if i ignore my instincts and buy it anyway, and it turns out that they have frequently used it fed out of a tank (as warned against earlier in this thred) as they were when my viewer saw it; or that its been years without servicing, or whatever.

          Back to the auto/semi-auto thing though, another Cimbali i was looking at (as mentioned previously) was Mauricems Junior D, and apparently that has a rotary switch to control different volumes, (which can be adjusted via steel rods), and can also be used as a semi-auto if desired.

          I dont really understand how it works, but it doesnt sound like there are any electronics, and its not a "programmable" shot button as such (A, cos its a switch, and B, you dont just hold down the button while you set the shot time to change it).

          So something like that, as far as i can tell (and please correct me if im mistaken, hehe), gets me the best of both worlds.

          In case you havent noticed, im a bit of a bet-hedger .

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

            The Cimbali Junior D is not only volumetric, but it has programmable volumes...

            So heaps of electronics Im afraid!

            The flow of water to the group is measured by something resembling a small paddle wheel contained in a brass block through which the water is passed. This "flow meter" gives off a pulse (actually the light path between an LED and a photo-transistor in the block is broken) every rotation (or it could be multiple times per rotation - not sure)

            I dont know of any volumetric units (including consumer ones) which dont have a microprocessor control to count these pulses..... and even the water on/off (semi auto) function is done by that processor....

            Dead processor = no coffee + large expense!

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

              Originally posted by JavaB link=1155104339/30#34 date=1155295564
              The Cimbali Junior D is not only volumetric, but it has programmable volumes...

              So heaps of electronics Im afraid!

              The flow of water to the group is measured by something resembling a small paddle wheel contained in a brass block through which the water is passed. This "flow meter" gives off a pulse (actually the light path between an LED and a photo-transistor in the block is broken) every rotation (or it could be multiple times per rotation - not sure)

              I dont know of any volumetric units (including consumer ones) which dont have a microprocessor control to count these pulses..... and even the water on/off (semi auto) function is done by that processor....

              Dead processor = no coffee + large expense!
              I think theres some confusion still with model numbers. Cimbalis current Junior n the D series is the DT1 and does indeed have complex electronics. My MY 2000 model D has no ICs and measures dose volume out of a dosing chamber where the volume is determined by a conductive rod. Its still more complex than my S model which is simply on or off.
              My sites down at the moment but I temporarily threw some pics up on a mates site here
              http://www.whalesong.com.au/temp

              hope this helps

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                Originally posted by mauricem link=1155104339/30#35 date=1155299871
                MY 2000 model D has no ICs and measures dose volume out of a dosing chamber where the volume is determined by a conductive rod. Its still more complex than my S model which is simply on or off.
                My sites down at the moment but I temporarily threw some pics up on a mates site here
                http://www.whalesong.com.au/temp

                hope this helps
                Thanks for that.

                That is an interesting, yet simple idea.

                As you said, more complex than a semi-auto but a lot less to go wrong than with a "normal" full auto. I guess when the water touches the end of the rod it operates a relay and the flow stops (as per the auto fill for the boiler).

                It would be interesting to know what model Juniors have each method. The Commercial units have used the flow meter for >20 years - but obviously the junior is different .....

                Your model would be far better for domestic use.

                EDIT: Ive just been looking at the photos trying to figure out how it works :-/

                Can you please describe what happens?

                My guess is water flows into the dosing unit from the tank until it touches the metal rod. No more water is admitted and then the vib pump pushes it out to the group..... The dosing unit doesnt look like it could withstand 9 Bars.

                Is that correct? In which case it couldnt be used with a mains supply (or even a rotary pump??) which maybe why the new model Juniors have gone the the commercial type dosing method.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                  Well that model D is a plumbed in model if thats what you mean, but yeah, i was surprised to see what looks like plastic there.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                    Hi Zakal1,

                    I think what Java is trying to say, is that regardless of what maintenance may be required to put your Cimbali into reliable service, for the price you have paid youre still way out in front. These machines are so well built that short of the unit falling out of the back of a low flying aeroplane, its worth having, putting in the necessary elbow grease, minimal cash, a bit of spit and polish and then Voilà 8-)..... one fantastic espresso machine that will last a lifetime of domestic use. It shouldnt be a difficult decision really but Im sure that if you dont want it, there will be a mini-stampede from other CSers to pay up and take it home :,

                    Mal.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                      Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1155104339/30#33 date=1155290738
                      ...i dont trust the condition it could be in if the seller has been so loose with the truth on other aspects of it.
                      What has he been so loose with? From what has been said the only thing that wasnt accurately described was its age. I find that when people are talking about a machine theyve owned in a business for 10 years or more that the age they assign to it is very frequently not accurate. In point of fact I find that they are rarely correct in how old they think the machine is and are sometimes off by a decade or more. Not because they are intentionally lying but because when dealing with something bought that long ago dates get very fuzzy. This is especially true in a business where many other things have been bought and replaced over the course of 20+ years.

                      As to his being loose with the machine having been recently serviced it sounds like this may be semantics. To you recently may mean with-in the last month. For him having owned the machine for over 20 years recently may mean with-in the last year. Until you get specific details from him of the date of servicing and what was done to it you just dont know.

                      The statement "The machine was serviced recently" tells you nothing at all unless you are given specific dates and the work done on them. One persons recent is another persons ancient.

                      If i kick myself for letting it go, it wont be nearly as much as ill be kicking myself if i ignore my instincts and buy it anyway, and it turns out that they have frequently used it fed out of a tank (as warned against earlier in this thred) as they were when my viewer saw it
                      When I bought my Cimbali M-28 I paid a visit to the local Cimbali dealer (Im lucky enough to have one of the few dealers in the country just a few kms from my home) and was talking to the head tech there and he stated to me that the reason Cimbali says they must be plumbed in is not because theyre not capable of being run from a tank, but rather that it is because that if they are run from a tank and the tank runs dry the pump can be destroyed. He told me they always run their machines from tanks at trade shows etc. and that as long as the tank wasnt allowed to run dry that I could run my machine that way indefinitely.

                      Someone with a more intimate knowledge of these pumps (Chris?) correct me if Im wrong, but looking at the pump it appears that the reason they die if run dry is the water is no longer there to act as a heat sink/lubricant and so the seal between the vane and the body gets hot and quickly wears and starts leaking. If this is the case and theres no sign of leakage from the pump then it should be fine.

                      or that its been years without servicing, or whatever.
                      When dealing with used machines more than a couple of years old I always assume that they will need a complete tear-down and cleaning/descaling. Regardless of what their claimed servicing history is!

                      The machine may very well have been serviced in the not too distant past and the grouphead gasket replaced. The cause of its leaking may simply be old grounds on it or wear and tear from it never being cleaned of old grounds causing it to wear prematurely.

                      Back to the auto/semi-auto thing though, another Cimbali i was looking at (as mentioned previously) was Mauricems Junior D, and apparently that has a rotary switch to control different volumes, (which can be adjusted via steel rods), and can also be used as a semi-auto if desired...

                      <snip>

                      ...So something like that, as far as i can tell (and please correct me if im mistaken, hehe), gets me the best of both worlds.
                      Every time you add another part to a machine you increase the likelyhood of a breakdown. This is one of the big reasons why semi-autos are so highly sought after. They have the minimum number of parts needed to perform their job.

                      While the old volumetric dosing chambers may not have any electronics they require additional relays and control circuits. A machine with 10 relays is twice as likely to suffer a breakdown as a machine with only 5 (this isnt the actual number of relays in the machines but is simply used as an example). Never having seen a dosing chamber personally I dont know how many additional relays/circuits its control system contains but I would imagine its at least double what a machine with-out such a system uses.

                      The dosing chamber itself is yet another point of failure. Both its gaskets/seals as well as the chamber itself. The chamber is made from plastic. Plastic degrades over time becoming more brittle and susceptible to cracking. The more heat its exposed to the faster this occurs.

                      The most common point of failure on the older Cimbalis with this style of volumetric dosing according to the local Cimbali tech? Uh-huh, you guessed it, the dosing system.

                      This machine can be totally rebuilt (every gasket, o-ring, spring etc.) with only about $50 in parts and some time and elbow grease on your part.

                      I have no vested interest in your buying this machine but Id hate to see you pass up what appears to be a great deal on a machine that with a little work will last you a lifetime with minimal repair costs.

                      This machine is 23 years old and still working. How many of the current models with their fancy electronics do you think will still be working in 23 years?

                      Java "Reliability over bells and whistles every time!" phile
                      Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                        Originally posted by Mal link=1155104339/30#38 date=1155306429
                        Hi Zakal1,

                        I think what Java is trying to say, is that regardless of what maintenance may be required to put your Cimbali into reliable service, for the price you have paid youre still way out in front. These machines are so well built that short of the unit falling out of the back of a low flying aeroplane, its worth having, putting in the necessary elbow grease, minimal cash, a bit of spit and polish and then Voilà 8-)..... one fantastic espresso machine that will last a lifetime of domestic use. It shouldnt be a difficult decision really
                        Precisely Mal!

                        Im sure that if you dont want it, there will be a mini-stampede from other CSers to pay up and take it home :,

                        Mal.
                        Indeed! In fact Id even go so far as to suggest that if Zakal decides not to buy this machine that he post/offer the details of where its located and the contact info for the person there so some other CSer can snap it up at that price before it gets relisted on evilbay. Im sure there will be no shortage of takers!

                        Java "Would love to have it!" phile
                        Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                          Originally posted by JavaB link=1155104339/30#36 date=1155301332

                          EDIT: Ive just been looking at the photos trying to figure out how it works :-/

                          Can you please describe what happens?

                          My guess is water flows into the dosing unit from the tank until it touches the metal rod. No more water is admitted and then the vib pump pushes it out to the group..... The dosing unit doesnt look like it could withstand 9 Bars.

                          Is that correct? In which case it couldnt be used with a mains supply (or even a rotary pump??) which maybe why the new model Juniors have gone the the commercial type dosing method.
                          Very quick and probably inaccurate description till I can find someone whos said it better or get time to explain it more clearly :-[
                          The dosing unit is a  holding/measuring chamber, its not under mains or any pressure(apart from atmospheric ). A line plumbed from the mains admits water to the chamber via a solenoid valve whenever the level drops below a predetermined value. When the shot button is pushed a valve opens on the outlet side of the chamber to gravity feed the vibe pump. when the level in the chamber drops by the programmed shot volume outlet valve closes, pump stops and inlet valve opens to refill chamber.

                          It all looked like a bit wierd to me a first, a bit like left over props form a bgrade sci-fi movie but the Cimbali techs I spoke to reckon it was a simple and robust solution which should last 20 years+ in a commercial setting

                          JavaPhile I cant share your enthusiasm for the old M20 which was the original subject of this thread. Ive been watching Cimbali prices over here for some time now and whilst I agree it could almost definitely be restored for not too many $ its really not a great buy in terms of  other units that have gone before it. Maybe for someone local (to the seller in melbourne) but by the time you add $100+ freight and the uncertainty of what happens to it in transit I personally would keep looking preferably for a machine out of a non commercial enviro.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                            Ive not seen a good test regimen for a used machine posted anywhere on here so in light of the current discussion I thought Id write one up.

                            This is intended for this specific machine but with a few tweaks can easily be used for any espresso machine.

                            First off give the machine a good visual going over. Remove the side/back panels and look for any rust, corrosion, or signs of water leaks (Need I warn about being aware of doing this when the machine is plugged in whether or not its powered up?). Leave these panels off for now. Is the power cord or any other electrical wires frayed? Are there any obviously missing parts such as the tip of the steam arm or the hot water fill spout?

                            Looking at the pics on ebay of the machine under discussion I cant tell if the tip of the steam arm and the hot water spigot are present or not. If the tip of the steam arm is missing Id suggest replacing the entire arm. It costs $35AUD from one of our site sponsors (http://www.coffeeparts.com.au/cim/cim2.html).

                            Turn the main switch one click. This is the fill boiler position. If the boiler is already filled then nothing will appear to happen with the switch in this position. Check the fill level in the sight glass and verify that the boiler is properly filled.

                            Once this is done then turn the main power switch another click. The heater should now kick in and the boiler start to warm up. After a few minutes you will hear some steam escaping. This is normal and to be expected. The steam is coming from the vaccuum relief valve (located on the top of the boiler fill level sight glass assembly) and should only last a short time before the valve seals and the pressure in the boiler then starts to build. If this valve continues to spit a small amount of steam then it needs to be descaled and a new gasket ($1) put in it.

                            If no escaping steam is heard before the boiler comes up to pressure then the vaccuum relief valve needs to be checked for sticking and descaled and its gasket replaced.

                            Verify that the boiler comes up to the proper pressure by checking the gauge.

                            To verify that the vaccuum relief valve has done its job once the boiler comes up to pressure open the steam arms valve (careful of hot water/steam coming out of the arm!) and let it run for a few seconds while watching the boiler pressure gauge. Does it register a large drop? If so descale and rebuild the vaccuum relief valve.

                            While running the steam arm verify that it is getting good pressure through it. If some of the holes on the steam tip are not working it probably needs to be disassembled and pieces of old washers removed from it and descaled. If overall pressure from it is very low then the valve assembly most likely needs to be taken apart and old gasket pieces removed from it and cleaned/descaled.

                            Do the same thing with the hot water tap. Open its valve and verify that it is working properly.

                            While testing the hot water tap let it run at a medium flow rate while watching the boilers fill level and verify that the pump kicks in to refill the boiler before the minimum fill level is reached and that the pump then turns off with-out over-filling the boiler.

                            The knob on the lower right of the machine is a manual fill lever. Pull the knob out and press down on it to manually fill the boiler. This will only work if the machine is hooked up to the water mains as it does not turn the pump on but simply opens a valve and uses the pressure of the water main to force water into the boiler.

                            Once the boiler is up to pressure turn on the pump (the middle knob on the bottom front of the machine) and verify that water is pumped through the grouphead. Being aware that it will not be the proper temperature until the machine has been on for 30 minutes or more and the grouphead is brought up to temp.

                            Next put on the portafilter with the blank/backflushing basket in it and lock it down. If the portafilter turns past pointing straight out from the machine the grouphead gasket is most likely worn and in need of replacment.

                            Turn the pump on as if you were pulling a shot and look for leaks. Ideally this should be done with the top panels removed as well as the side and back panels as this will allow you a much better/easier viewing of the internal grouphead area. If the machine has a gauge for the pressure in the grouphead verify that it is about 9 bars and steady.

                            Turn the pump off and listen/watch for the pressure relief relay/valve opening and discharging steam/water into the drip tray. This is done from a small copper pipe with a plastic funnel on its end that comes off the grouphead and runs down the back side of the front panel (the one with the gauges on it) ending just above the drip tray.

                            There will only be a small amount of water/steam coming out of this pipe. If nothing comes out of it be aware that removing the portafilter before pressure is equilized will result in scalding hot water spraying from it!! If the pressure relief relay/valve does not work it may just be gunked up from not having been backflushed properly/regularly. A good backflushing with cleaner may fix the problem or if its really bad it may need to be taken apart and given a good cleaning/descaling. If that fails to work then the relay will need to be replaced.

                            If the machine passes all these tests then its a fully functional machine just needing to be taken home and given a thorough cleaning and descaling before being put into use.

                            Java "I think that covers it" phile
                            Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                              Originally posted by mauricem link=1155104339/30#41 date=1155339585
                              JavaPhile I cant share your enthusiasm for the old M20 which was the original subject of this thread. Ive been watching Cimbali prices over here for some time now and whilst I agree it could almost definitely be restored for not too many $ its really not a great buy in terms of other units that have gone before it. Maybe for someone local (to the seller in melbourne) but by the time you add $100+ freight and the uncertainty of what happens to it in transit I personally would keep looking
                              That may well be Mauricem. I dont know what the pricing is like over there for the commercial Cimbali single head units. Here in the US they go for significantly more than the one under discussion sold for.

                              If this machine is over-priced for the local market there and others are available for less then by all means pass on it and buy one of them.

                              Running a quick search on evilbay for other Cimbalis that have sold on there in AUS however I find that the one under discussion is the only used one for as far back as ebay does their searches. This leads me to believe theyre not all that common and it may be a long time until another one like this becomes avaialble.

                              Also be aware of the differences between the older commercial machines and the newer lite versions designed for home use that sell for half as much.

                              preferably for a machine out of a non commercial enviro.
                              Good luck finding a machine like this that wasnt in a commercial environment. Ive yet to see one that wasnt. In all the years Ive been looking/watching for one Ive only ever seen one single machine of this type that didnt come out of a commercial environment and that was one of the newer lite ones that had been used in a demo unit in a multi-million dollar condo development and it sold for over 3 times what this one went for.

                              Again, I have no vested interest in this machine or in Cimbali in general and at the end of the day the decision is up too Zakal. All Ive said is simply my opinion and not knowing the details of the local area I could well be off the mark as to the value of the machine as Im on the opposite side of the planet.

                              Java "The upsidedown" phile
                              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: La Cimbali M20, help me help it lose some weig

                                Originally posted by Javaphile link=1155104339/30#39 date=1155332862
                                What has he been so loose with? From what has been said the only thing that wasnt accurately described was its age. I find that when people are talking about a machine theyve owned in a business for 10 years or more that the age they assign to it is very frequently not accurate. In point of fact I find that they are rarely correct in how old they think the machine is and are sometimes off by a decade or more. Not because they are intentionally lying but because when dealing with something bought that long ago dates get very fuzzy. This is especially true in a business where many other things have been bought and replaced over the course of 20+ years.

                                As to his being loose with the machine having been recently serviced it sounds like this may be semantics. To you recently may mean with-in the last month. For him having owned the machine for over 20 years recently may mean with-in the last year. Until you get specific details from him of the date of servicing and what was done to it you just dont know.

                                The statement "The machine was serviced recently" tells you nothing at all unless you are given specific dates and the work done on them. One persons recent is another persons ancient.

                                Okay i should clarify:

                                - the machine has clearly stamped on it "1983", the person i sent said they saw it straight away, while i agree you tend to forget how old things are when youve owned them for so long, its really a bit odd to do so when its so clearly displayed.

                                - the statement wasnt "machine was serviced recently", it was "machine was serviced 2 weeks ago/ start of june"

                                This creates two problems for me, firstly, 2 weeks ago wasnt the start of june OR july for that matter (and yes im working back 2 weeks from listing date), which means that this machine has been previously sold and relisted, or a failed sale and relisted (probably the latter more likely)

                                Secondly, if it WAS serviced 2 weeks ago, or at least the start of june (2months ago), i would have thought that issue should have been addressed. Maybe 2 months is a long time, and the replacement parts have also failed.

                                However, they are not using this machine anymore, and you would think havent been at least since originally listed, so i wouldnt think these things fail from new by themselves (though maybe it would be worse that way).

                                Either way, hardly can be described as being in "excellent condition." maybe "excellent condition in lieu of its actual age."

                                But anyway, unfortunately i dont think anyone saw inside the machine itself ( i should have reminded them to look there), but what is inside the cover-plates is still very much speculation with only the afforementioned circumstantial stuff to hint at what may be there.



                                THanks a heap for that guide btw, im sure it will come in handy very soon.
                                Its such a bloody nuisance living in Qld, all the machines that come up for sale pretty much are in Melb or NSW, and its just too damn far to go and have a look at in person.

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