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  • HX boiler insulation results

    Recently we insulated the boilers of a Bezzera 2 group- approx 10 l boiler- and an ECM Botticelli- single boiler 400ml

    With the Bezzera there has been approximately 40% reduction in the time the heater is on in the boiler cycle.
    We used 3mm ceramic fibre paper- with it the boiler is only warm to the touch and the cup tray warm to hot- heat still comes from hx pipes etc and the bosses that pipes are bolted into.

    Unfortunately I didnt measure the Botticellis boiler cycle- suffice it to say that the machine was off for a few hours after morning coffee and I burnt my hand on the grouphead handling it! I turned it back on and it was back up to brew temp- 93 C -in a very short while
    If any botticelli owners can measure the boiler cycle I will give comparisons.

    The job was time consuming- the Bezzera is old and I didnt want to remove all the pipes (just did a few) in case of leaks, so there were lots of slits to allow pieces to fit around this and that. I wired around the boiler in three places in the middle, around each end, and various other parts.
    The paper must be handled carefully as tearing happens quite easily. If people were going to remove the pipes or had a single group the going would be much easier.
    Still a job worth doing!

    Brett

  • #2
    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Did you wrap the insulation around the boiler once or a couple of times since its only 3mm?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: HX boiler insulation results

      Originally posted by Coffee Kid link=1156047023/0#1 date=1156058641
      Did you wrap the insulation around the boiler once or a couple of times since its only 3mm?
      Hey Coffee Kid
      just one wrap- the stuff is very high density- for me the issue was that I still wanted a warming tray.
      Interestingly, the 3mm keeps a very hot boiler (read instant burn) at just warm to the touch- any more insulation would probably be a waste.
      The paper is suitable for industrial ovens etc as far as I know

      see:
      http://www.unifrax.com.au/products.htm for ordering and:

      http://www.infraredheaters.com/550-k.htm for info

      Brett

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: HX boiler insulation results

        So the blanket would just be to much? i thought the price for the paper and blanket are the same arnt they?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: HX boiler insulation results

          not sure theres too mcuh difference- blanket can take ridiculous temps- blanket might be easier to use if u have more room for it
          brett

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: HX boiler insulation results

            Wow, 40% is a big drop, and should impact a lot on those cost calculations in the other thread.

            How much did the thermal stuff cost?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: HX boiler insulation results

              I talked with a rep from the manufacturer of the Durablanket S and Ceramic Fiber Paper and they recommended that space permitting (plenty of that in the Cimbali), I use the blanket rather than the paper as it will hold up to cutting and having to manipulate it into place around pipes and fittings much better.

              As Telemaster noted the paper tears quite easily, which can be a problem trying to fit it to the smaller boilers.

              As I recall from our convo the .25 inch paper was a better insulator than the 1 inch blanket. Because the blanket can be better molded to the boiler however, he figured that they would be about equal in energy savings.

              Java "Still playing with the idea" phile
              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: HX boiler insulation results

                Originally posted by Coffee Kid link=1156047023/0#3 date=1156063927
                So the blanket would just be to much? i thought the price for the paper and blanket are the same arnt they?
                The blanket is 2/3rds the cost of the paper.

                Java "Thinks the blanket would be easier to work with" phile
                Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: HX boiler insulation results

                  from my source same price per m

                  here is an excerpt from brad attard, info@consolidatedrefractories.com.au


                  >> Thank you for your enquiry. We are pleased to sell a
                  >> small quantity of
                  >> ceramic fibre. We find this is generally about 1
                  >> metre x the width of 610mm
                  >> x 25mm thick. I have a roll which I can cut if you
                  >> need some this thick. I
                  >> also have ceramic fibre paper at 3mm thick if this
                  >> is of assistance. We sell
                  >> the paper at $30.00 per metre and the blanket will
                  >> also be $30.00 per metre
                  >> both + GST. We ship by Couriers Please for most
                  >> items at $12.50 + GST or can
                  >> post at post cost + $5.00.
                  >> If you require this item you need to be aware it is
                  >> s man made fibre and may
                  >> become a dust if not handled correctly of sealed in
                  >> your application. I hope
                  >> this is of some assistance and look forward to
                  >> hearing from you again
                  >> shortly if we are able to help.
                  >> Best Regards
                  >> Brad Attard

                  it cost me $20 to get it couriered- next day dleivery from melbourne to sydney

                  if i had the space id be using the blanket- it can be stretched and sewn with wire

                  brett

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: HX boiler insulation results

                    Hi all,

                    Im buying a single roll CF Blanket, 6mm thick x 600mm wide x 7000mm (7 Metres) long for $20.00 plus about $8.50 postage from a place in Brisbane called "Total Refractory Management P/L".... to insulate the Bezzeras Boiler, the area around the Control Box and maybe some of the pipe-work. Depends how difficult access to some of the pipe-work will be as to how much of that I actually do.

                    Mal.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: HX boiler insulation results

                      How do these blankets differ from fire blankets? I believe they are heat reflective/insulating, maybe one of these would also do the job, and you do see a similar kind of fabric used to insulate various heat-piping on things.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: HX boiler insulation results

                        Hi everyone. This is my first post. I am a UK enthusiast who usually posts on a European forum, but has been a longtime reader at CoffeeSnobs. I hope you guys dont mind having a pom hanging around

                        We have been discussing insulating boilers here in the UK and one or two have gone ahead and done so. I have held off to date but am encouraged by the experiences of those on this thread. There had been some discussion here about any potential negatives to insulating, but I cannot think of any other than slow recovery from any overshoot on machines with PID control. Has anyone on CoffeeSnobs observed any negatives?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: HX boiler insulation results

                          Originally posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/0#11 date=1156183595
                          Hi everyone. This is my first post. I am a UK enthusiast who usually posts on a European forum, but has been a longtime reader at CoffeeSnobs. I hope you guys dont mind having a pom hanging around

                          We have been discussing insulating boilers here in the UK and one or two have gone ahead and done so. I have held off to date but am encouraged by the experiences of those on this thread. There had been some discussion here about any potential negatives to insulating, but I cannot think of any other than slow recovery from any overshoot on machines with PID control. Has anyone on CoffeeSnobs observed any negatives?

                          hi cakeboy, welcome
                          - no problems with poms- my lovely partner who did the measuring and cutting for the insulation is from up north in england

                          Brett

                          negatives- only the time and the fact that we should have used latex gloves- a bit gritty and my partner got blisters (fixed with vitamin e cream)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: HX boiler insulation results

                            Originally posted by Zakal1 link=1156047023/0#10 date=1156174032
                            How do these blankets differ from fire blankets? I believe they are heat reflective/insulating, maybe one of these would also do the job, and you do see a similar kind of fabric used to insulate various heat-piping on things.
                            Gday Zakal1,

                            Most Fire Blankets I have seen use a kind of woven cloth weave to make an actual woven cloth from fibreglass, mineral fibre or whatever. The Ceramic Fibre blankets I have seen are more like a tangle of fibres creating a kind of mat rather than a woven cloth. If you have ever seen the fibreglass Chopped Strand Mat used in boat and surfboard manufacture, it sort of looks like this but more densely packed.

                            Mal.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: HX boiler insulation results

                              Originally posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/0#11 date=1156183595
                              There had been some discussion here about any potential negatives to insulating, but I cannot think of any other than slow recovery from any overshoot on machines with PID control. Has anyone on CoffeeSnobs observed any negatives?
                              Hi CakeBoy,

                              You are most welcome to join our very enthusiastic coffee community here down-under [smiley=thumbsup.gif]. Hope you enjoy the experience ;D,

                              Like you, I cant think of any real negatives associated with insulating the boiler and maybe even some of the pipe-work too for that matter. Obviously, the thermodynamics of the the system will be altered as such and if you have a PID Controller managing the boiler, then a bit more fine tuning will overcome most of any over-shoot problems. I tune my controller to respond to the dynamics of pulling shots anyway, not the straight out maintenance of a nominal boiler temperature.... this results in minimum over-shoot as a direct result anyway ,

                              Cheers,
                              Mal.

                              Comment

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