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Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

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  • #16
    Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

    Tom,

    Something else you might find useful....

    Would you like to be able to adjust the grind between the steps on your MDF?

    If so check this out.

    http://coffeeaspirations.blogspot.com/2006/07/barista-guild-of-america-and-how-to.html

    Could help you a lot!

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

      Hi Tom and welcome!

      Im coming in a bit late here, but I have a Classic albeit with a different grinder (Solis 166). The Classic really benefits from a good consistent grind (my Solis isnt really up to the task). With my setup, the biggest improvement (short of replacing my grinder  :P) came from buying a good quality Pullman tamper. The difference was quite noticeable. My shots became more controllable and the improvement was swift.

      A word of advice: make sure you keep the cleaning of your machine up to scratch.  Do a water backflush using a blind filter basket regularly and do a chemical backflush once every couple of weeks. It just helps to remove old coffee oils and keeps the dispersion block/shower screen and 3-way valve clean and functional. Dont forget to de-scale your boiler either..youd be surprised how much scale and corrosion can build up in there.  

      I have had my machine for 4 years and have been very happy with it on the whole. It does have some shortcomings (but then there is no perfect machine). But, really, for what it is, its a good, no-nonsense machine (the same basic Classic design has been around for over 10 years IIRC). Youll never win a competition with it, but when get all the variables under control, dont be surprised when you pull some very decent shots.

      BTW, if my first shots had looked like yours I would have been cheering.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

        Ola everyone

        Once again thanks a lot for your replies

        Lucinda: oh right you wrote about getting the grinder on 22Dec, silly me I tried different settings today, you can read about somewhere below.

        JavaB: you are right that grinders can vary I was just curious if its smth closer to 1 or not. I might make my MDF stepless if it annoyes me too much It still has a valid warranty for 2 years, so touching anything inside would mean bye bye warranty. But who knows I might do it Thanks for the link mate!

        Flo: Im using Brita water filters and try to keep the mashine clean, although I will have to do a backflush from time to time and descale it once in a month. I hope my shots will improve when I get my new tamper

        Today I tried three dofferent settings on my MDF and did some pictures of the pucks. Its funny cause I used some beans roasted on the 27.11.06 and I had almost no crema:| Dont know why (well onlu around 0,5cm, although the Guiness effect appeared, and it looked really cool).
        So here we go:

        1. Grinder setting: 3

        My Classic couldnt take it Nothing appeared in the first 20s, after that a few drops started coming out of the PF. Diagnose: too fine. But the puck looked good:



        although it got a bit broken when I tried to tap it out:



        maybe its because of some side channeling?

        2. Grinder setting: 4

        I guess I tamped a bit to hard, as the pour was quite slow, only 50ml in 25s. Heres a photo showing the small crema (its a one shot glass, around 25ml inside, the line shows 30ml):



        The puck looked good, a slight shower impression:



        and it came out easily:



        leaving an empty and almost clean basket:



        Decission: hmm tamped too hard, or grind still too fine, lets check out the 5th setting

        3. Grinder setting: 5

        A really fast pour, too fast I guess, got more than 30ml in 25s and virtually no crema. When I took the coffee cake from the basket it look quite nice, but the surface was covered in water and there was no shower impression:



        Decision: grind to coarse, going back to 4

        4. Grinder setting: 4 again

        Tamped a bit lighter and it came out pretty nice, 30ml in 25s, cool guiness effect, although the crema died quickly again. I think it came out slightly too bitter. But I never tasted espresso, so I dont even know what it should taste like. Is it even possible to describe? What consistency should it have? Should it be really thick, or not so much? I noticed that the few drops that came out of the PF on the 3rd setting where very sour. I guess thats the first part of the pour right? After that comes the sweet stuff and at the end the bitter stuff? (Als rule of the three)
        On the 5th setting the coffee was really watery, but didnt taste bitter. 4th setting was more bitter, but also less watery.

        I will try to set up a video camera and maybe record my extraction, it would be easier to see what Im doing wrong

        Again thanks for all the tips and advice and take care,
        Cheers,
        dsc.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

          Hi dsc,

          You are diagnosing really well... What beans are you using?? The bitterness could be from stale beans... re: Gloria Geans (by the time you buy the beans from retail they arent fresh anymore), Supermarket variety etc...

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

            Gday dsc,

            A belated welcome to CS! I agree with marcstolk re your diagnosis skills, though I fear your findings at this point will become redundant when your Torr tamper arrives (presuming its a good fit in your basket, i.e. no grounds up the side). A correct tamp makes such a difference youll probably find your results will change and youll need to grind a bit coarser. Thats not to say its wasted time, by no means; the capacity to diagnose correctly will make short work of the readjustments when the Torr arrives, but dont be surprised if you find a 4 is no longer what you need. At least youll be eliminating another variable with a correct tamp though.

            Greg

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

              It appears youre using the single basket. Try using the double. Single baskets are notoriously hard to get consistant pours from.


              Java "Never uses a single" phile
              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

                Originally posted by Javaphile link=1166313709/15#20 date=1166408906
                Single baskets are notoriously hard to get consistant pours from.


                Java "Never uses a single" phile
                Aint that the truth....

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

                  Originally posted by Javaphile link=1166313709/15#20 date=1166408906
                  Single baskets are notoriously hard to get consistant pours from.
                  Java "Never uses a single" phile
                  Even the trainer at the commercial machine course I did told us to always use a double basket. If a customer comes and asks for a single coffee.... let half the extraction pour down the drain! (and dont keep it for the next coffee either ;D)

                  "Its not worth your reputation serving coffee from a single basket" - and that is for sure

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

                    Gotta say that looks like a double puck to me. Im pretty sure the singles come in sharply, leaving more of a Taj Mahal profile

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

                      Same here.
                      Puck and empty basket look like a double.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

                        Ola everyone

                        Again thank you for your tips and suggestions. I borrowed a digital camera from a friend and used it to shot 3 short movies, so now you can see how it looks in motion. But first:

                        marcstolk: I use beans which were roasted on the 27.10.06, so not so long ago. Maybe the bitterness is caused by high water temperature? When I though of that I started to force a cooling flush before each shot. Im not sure if it helps, cause I only did it once

                        Greg: I would really like for my tamper to arrive soon, although I dont think it will get here before christmas:| Have you ever used a TORR? If so I wonder what you think of it. Im sure getting the tamper will mean having to get used to it, but it should improve the whole process and maybe help to distribute the coffee a bit better (it will be a us convex).

                        To make things clear: all of the above shots and pretty much everything I did was created with the double basket. I know it holds more coffee, has a better shape and its hard for the water to break the integrity of the puck during the shot.

                        Below you will find three short movies. Sorry for the quality and for no sound, but this is the best I can do:

                        1. grinding:

                        http://video.google.pl/videoplay?docid=-562137081991264932

                        Trying to distribute evenly around the basket, flicking that side handle quite often to break any clumps. After its done a gentle tap on the counter for distribution.

                        2. disrtibution and leveling

                        http://video.google.pl/videoplay?docid=8448719229463706496

                        Quite slow I know, I was looking at the camera at the same time and wasnt very focused. A couple of simple NS and EW moves.

                        3. "extraction"

                        http://video.google.pl/videoplay?docid=6258967356230163338

                        "Extraction" cause it shouldnt really be called that way
                        Fluid starts to float around 7-8s after hitting the switch. First couple of seconds looks good, the pour is thin, dark brown. But at a certain moment (22second of the movie) it starts to get blond and the pour becomes thick. I did a 30s shot, just too show how it looks. Got almost 60ml (one cup had around 30ml and the other around 27ml). Virtually no creama after 10s.

                        Ive read that sudden blonding is cause by chanelling, is that right or am I messing smth up?
                        If so its strange cause the puck is really solid, almost identical to that on the photos somewhere above. It also came out of the PF without leaving any coffee inside. And it had a shower screen impression.

                        So what do you think?

                        Thanks a lot and cheers,
                        dsc.



                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

                          I think your lack of crema can be put down to your beans. If they are not fresh, the gaggia will not produce a decent crema. It is one of the pernickety fussy aspects of the classic.

                          Once you start roasting, because lets face it, after being on here a while you will be doing it. I had not intention of roasting but withing a few weeks of being a member on CS I started ;D

                          So once you start roasting and drinking your own, you will find you will get great crema and even greater coffee.

                          Blonding - from my guess and experience is caused by overextraction, you have left the extraction too long.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

                            My only comment for the moment is that your grinder wobbles around a lot.
                            Where have you got it sitting?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

                              i recomment a PID or thermometer to improve consistency. Knowing what temp your machine is at allows you to pull at an identical temperature every time.

                              also, are you doing all the little routine things, like warming the machine correctly, blowing water before you pull the shot, things like that? your "25 second" shot can actually be a 15 second shot if the machine spends the first 10 seconds pulling the water up from the reservoir.

                              i have an identical setup to you and its very much capable of making excellent espresso. If you want to improve your ability to diagnose shots then you should drink more coffee from more places. drink short blacks for a month at reputable cafes and compare them to your own. they wont always be better....

                              perhaps you can try some other things, like ditching the first 1 or 2 seconds of 1 of your shots and comparing flavours of the two to see whether that helps...

                              and always use the double basket. the single is a lottery and its not worth trying to tame. just ditch the 2nd shot if you want a single and (if youre drinking a milky one) use it to sample your espresso.

                              bottom line, though, is practice. just keep making coffee as much as you can and youll keep improving. good luck.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Gaggia Classic begginer - extraction problems

                                Ola again

                                Wow! Im amazed at the ammount of replies I got here, this is truly a very friendly place

                                lucinda: yes I heard that the Classic can be fairly demanding when it comes to the freshness of beans. As for the early blonding it is kind of wierd cause it happends around 7 seconds after the coffee starts to flow, so it is really premature. I know I left it for too long on the movie, just wanted to show how the extraction looks after 30s.

                                Thundergod: the grinder is standing on a piece of styrofoam packing thats why it wobbles som much. I tried to use the fork for holding the PF but it not very comfortable, plus the coffee tends to fall out to the left, which made the grinding a bit messy (and I wasnt able to rotate the PF to achieve an even distribution). So I build a small extention from PVC and placed the grinder a bit higher, so I can put the PF under the fork.

                                early_morning_: I usually let the machine warm up for around 30min and I do a cooling flush before pulling a shot. That shot on the movie was infact a 17s shot as the coffee started flowing 7-8s after hitting the switch.
                                How does your extractions look like? is the pour solid and thin like it should be? no premature blonding?
                                My local coffee places usually serve crappy espresso and I guess my "extractions" are better than theirs. Sadly I have no places where I can go to taste a good espresso:|


                                I thought about the fact that I get only around 10ml in 30s when using a finer grind and maybe Im packing too much coffee into the basket? I once checked how much coffee is in a full leveled basket and it was around 17g instead of 14g. Maybe I should use less coffee?

                                Thanks for your ideas and
                                Take care,
                                dsc.

                                Comment

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