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Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

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  • #16
    Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

    According to Mr Illys article, an espresso will extract 60 to 70 percent of the caffeine so you are right, more coffee = more caffeine.

    However, you are also wrong because if you extract for an extra 30 seconds you will get approximately an extra 75% more caffeine as in the first 30 seconds; more water = more caffeine.

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    • #17
      Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

      Originally posted by Thundergod link=1200754258/15#15 date=1200991056
      According to Mr Illys article, an espresso will extract 60 to 70 percent of the caffeine so you are right, more coffee = more caffeine.

      However, you are also wrong because if you extract for an extra 30 seconds you will get approximately an extra 75% more caffeine as in the first 30 seconds; more water = more caffeine.
      /me scratches his head

      So is that another way of saying that of the 70% total caffeine content of the beans that is extracted, 60% of it is expressed in the first half of the shot and the remaining 40% comes out in the second half of the pull? :-? :-? :-?


      Java "Easily confuzzled" phile
      Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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      • #18
        Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

        ...Im with you Java-phile...somewhat befuddled.

        TG- are you saying that if you pour your espresso for 60 seconds you will get 145% of the available caffeine??!! or are you saying what Javaphile just said, which is, well sort of exactly what I said...

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        • #19
          Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

          Originally posted by Thundergod link=1200754258/15#15 date=1200991056
          According to Mr Illys article, an espresso will extract 60 to 70 percent of the caffeine so you are right, more coffee = more caffeine.

          However, you are also wrong because if you extract for an extra 30 seconds you will get approximately an extra 75% more caffeine as in the first 30 seconds; more water = more caffeine.
          My interpretation of the above, without having the Illy text before me, is:
          1st 30 seconds of extraction = 60-70% (65% for ease of calculation) of available caffeine extracted, 35% remains in coffee
          2nd 30 seconds of extraction = 75% of remaining caffeine extracted = 26.75% of total extracted

          Evaluating the above, a 30 second extraction will give 65% of the available caffeine while a 60 second extraction will give 91.75% of caffeine extracted.

          Just my 8.25%s worth.
          Greg

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          • #20
            Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

            OK OK let me put it another way.

            In the graph in the article at the 30 sec mark caffeine extraction was 0.4 parts per million.
            At 60 sec it was approx. .7 ppm.

            Clear as mud?

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            • #21
              Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

              Sorry guys, I think Ive misread the graphs.
              So I take back the second statement.

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              • #22
                Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

                Just to make sure what I am doing is correct. I alway use a double basket but only pour a single shot from this. Is this then classified as a ristretto?

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                • #23
                  Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

                  My understanding of ristretto is that it is a restricted shot.

                  So the pour would be stopped around 20 seconds.

                  So doing a ~20 second pour with a double basket into one cup = double ristretto.

                  Doing a full 30 second pour with a double basket into one cup = double espresso.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

                    Interesting because WBC rules say, "An espresso is a one-ounce beverage (25 to 35ml including crema)...brewing flow time is between 20 to 30 seconds"

                    I have two understandings of ristretto Fatboy...yours and also that a finer grind producing only 15-20mL of espresso in 30 seconds is acceptable.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

                      According to a couple of cafes Ive been to, the third definition of a ristretto is a blank look

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                      • #26
                        Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

                        Originally posted by fatboy link=1200754258/15#22 date=1201736429
                        My understanding of ristretto is that it is a restricted shot.

                        So the pour would be stopped around 20 seconds.

                        So doing a ~20 second pour with a double basket into one cup = double ristretto.

                        Doing a full 30 second pour with a double basket into one cup = double espresso.
                        Yep, a ristretto is a restricted shot, but I beg to differ on your understanding of what a double (or doppio) is.

                        A double ristretto/double espresso refers to the volume of liquid extracted - not the amount of grind crammed into the basket. So, a double ristretto is 40ml & a double espresso (a true doppio) is 60 ml. Whether you extract these respective amounts from a 7gm basket :P or a 21gm basket is immaterial as the descriptor (only to the quality of the shot).

                        Personally, for all my shots I only use a 16gm basket double spout PF but updose to fit closer to 20gms compacted grind. To extract a double ristretto, I waste a fair bit of grind in the quest for fullness & richness of flavour - I cram 20gms in, extract 20ml over app. 20 seconds, lose the puck, and repeat (so, 40ml from 40gms).

                        cheers,
                        Tony

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                        • #27
                          Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

                          Originally posted by Wushoes - David S link=1200754258/15#23 date=1201746520
                          I have two understandings of ristretto Fatboy...yours and also that a finer grind producing only 15-20mL of espresso in 30 seconds is acceptable.
                          Yep,

                          This is the genuine article but because of a lot of other factors, a lot of PBTC just leave the grind setting as is and pull the shot short..... Not a true Ristretto in that the intensity and sweetness will be lacking,

                          Mal.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

                            Originally posted by m@ link=1200754258/15#24 date=1201754929
                            According to a couple of cafes Ive been to, the third definition of a ristretto is a blank look
                            Yep- But I reckon this topic is a good reason why! Alot of us whom (supposedly!!) know what we are talking about differ on exactly what it is.

                            By the way- I happen to agree with Wushoes and Mal- being that a true double ristretto should be restricted by grind- not by time, but I differ in that I reckon a double ristretto should pull to 25mls-30mls- I just think that double the volume of coffee (ie 2 x 7-10 grams) benefits from a slightly longer pour...just my personal taste.

                            However what I really wanted to say is this: when making coffee in a commercial environment it is impracticle to adjust the grind on a stepless grinder to make 1 double ristretto for 1 customer, so I guess a "true" double espresso at your local cafe is gonna be hard to find, even if they dont scratch their heads!

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                            • #29
                              Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

                              Originally posted by coffeebreath link=1200754258/15#27 date=1201766772
                              but I differ in that I reckon a double ristretto should pull to 25mls-30mls- I just think that double the volume of coffee (ie 2 x 7-10 grams) benefits from a slightly longer pour...just my personal taste.
                              Yes, cb, this is the sort of volume I tend to work with too but I think maybe Wushoes was referring to the volume from a Single Ristretto, not a Doppio.

                              Anyway, regardless of the size of the Basket used, a properly poured Ristretto is a most delightful way to enjoy espresso.... Will never sacrifice these to the God of Lattes

                              Mal.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !

                                Originally posted by Mal link=1200754258/15#28 date=1201868004
                                Originally posted by coffeebreath link=1200754258/15#27 date=1201766772
                                but I differ in that I reckon a double ristretto should pull to 25mls-30mls- I just think that double the volume of coffee (ie 2 x 7-10 grams) benefits from a slightly longer pour...just my personal taste.
                                ... a properly poured Ristretto is a most delightful way to enjoy espresso.... Will never sacrifice these to the God of Lattes

                                Mal.
                                So what exactly is a properly poured ristretto Mal? :-?

                                Im getting a tad confused with espresso variation definitions here ...

                                Perhaps this highlights exactly what m@ posted earlier, in that a request for a certain poison gets a blank blink! (Succinct & to the point BTW m@)

                                ... any standard definition of an espresso based beverage is uncertain, because theres no agreement as to what the bloody standard is!




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