Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
I dropped into The Coffee Barun on Friday pm and Mark was kind enough to show me his techniques with his Synesso machine.
The best shot of the afternoon was well tamped, a triple basket, a bottomless holder, and Ill bet there was no more than 15-20 ml of coffee out of the fully dosed basket. It flowed from the filter holder like honey, slowly and gently, and all crema.
Greg
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
....jeez this has been good reading!
I wholeheartedly, 100%, completly and unfalteringly (etc..!) agree with the last 7-8 posts in this thread.
Its confirmed alot about what I thought I sorta knew about tamping etc, but also- and more importantly to me- it goes beyond the dogmatic/absolutist/"theres only 1 right way to produce a good shot" talk that often is a feature of coffee snobbery (which does no one any good, particularly the less experienced of us).
Im sort of repeating what GP said here, but if you REALLY want to extend your capabilities and knowledge you dont keep doing the same thing over and over. If your coffe making routines are robotic you will attain a certain skill level then plateau, but if you continue to experiment and challenge what you THINK you know you will gain a much deeper understanding, and if you are like me, the more you learn about coffee the more you realise how much you DONT know!
Its a journey, not a destination.
**now please visualize me stepping down from a soap box**
Cheers, Anthony
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
grrrrrrowl Greg [smiley=evil.gif]Originally posted by Greg Pullman link=1200754258/30#36 date=1202996515...any commonly accepted dogma has to stand the test of a challenge, tamping, 15kg, pressurised baskets are useless, fresh beans, grind on demand or whatever it may be ...
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
Totally agree Sparky, I didnt really want to take this thread OT as its definitely a topic for another thread, but it was just too juicy a worm to let go! Shows what happens when fattened worms get let out of the can
Any commonly accepted dogma has to stand the test of a challenge, tamping, 15kg, pressurised baskets are useless, fresh beans, grind on demand or whatever it may be. Nothing should be too sacred to challenge; if its right itll be standing at the end and if not why would we believe it? To go even further OT, its the attitude I take to religion - while Ive been brought up a Bible follower from day 1 its important for ones own beliefs in anything to see them withstand a challenge to ones own satisfaction as it gives confidence in the truth of those beliefs.
Aaaanyway, back to Synesso baskets! :
Greg
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
OK, get those worms back into the can...
All I wanted to say was there are more ways to skin a cat. Greg has gone into more detail as to the pros and cons with his excellent follow-up. I dont use this minimal tamp technique because I dont want to use the shower screen to tamp the puck due to all of the points referred to above as well as the potential for the puck to swell during the extraction, which would add to the excessive wear and cleaning woes.
Ultimatey, if youre careful and methodical, you can use a single basket (some are better than others) or vary the way you tamp and still get good results. That said, I tamp with a fitted tamper and only use a double basket.
Cows shouldnt be sacred, just good eatin
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
Dont get me wrong,
Tamping is important but I think the method employed is more important than the force used, so long as that is held within reasonable tolerances of consistency. Having a custom made tamper such as the Pullman makes it all so much easier to do. And from your own experiments Greg you discovered that once past a certain applied force, the actual force used makes very little difference to the integrity of the puck.
Theres more to tamping than meets the eye, its not just a matter of applying xxKgs force and then going for it, you need to make sure that the average bulk density of the puck is as uniform as possible in order for ensuing pours to be repeatable. I have developed a method that works for me, every time, despite the actual force being used varying quite a bit. I agree with you though, the lack of using a tamp altogether is probably not the best way of doing things. I have tried doing this but the results varied too much over the course of time and just adds yet another variable to the process, and who needs that?
Mal.
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
Great write up Greg. well of course hes going to say that.
I appreciate you doing this write up cos I dont have that much experience in tamping experimentation. Ive started to try a few things lately, provoked by posts on CS, and what you say rings true me thus far. I guess Im finding similar results, but dont really have the backing of the why part.
Thanks!
YeeZa
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
Interesting observation. I considered letting this go through to the keeper because any comments will more than likely be read as well of course hes going to say that. :Originally posted by Sparky link=1200754258/30#30 date=1202903209Another sacred cow that hes laid to rest is the need for a perfect tamp. Hes recently experimented with the "Merlo tamp", which is grinding finer, up-dosing and using that plastic disc that hangs off the grinder by pushing the PF up against it to flatten and "tamp" the grinds. Then he extracts awesome shots, transferring the aroma of the beans into the taste of the shot.
But Ill bite cos its something Ive given a fair bit of thought and some recent experimentation to.
Id agree that its not impossible to get a good extraction without tamping, but with a few qualifiers (i.e. I believe theres more to this topic than just you dont have to tamp):
- If you don’t tamp the group will get a lot messier from the loose grounds so you’ll have to pay a lot more attention and time to keep that clean, and failure to do so will compromise the flavour in other ways
- As you rotate the portafilter to load it, obviously the portafilter, basket and coffee are all rotating while the group is not. The fact the coffee will start off in contact with the showerscreen (especially in an updosed situation such as this) means there are two likely scenarios for addressing that rotational force:
1) the coffee in contact with the showerscreen moves, so it’s theoretically more likely to get blocked by having loose coffee shoved in and rotated through 45 degrees
2) the coffee in contact with the showerscreen doesn’t move while the portafilter does, in which case the rotational force of loading the portafilter is taken somewhere in the puck, leading to a puck shear and the potential for channelling - Any benefit of a polish (and that’s a subject in itself) is lost
- you’ll have to compensate for lack of tamp with other factors such as finer grind (exactly as described)
However… I DO believe it’s possible to get a good extraction without tamping providing you’re prepared to adjust the other factors accordingly. At least allowing the group to do the tamping it’s going to apply pressure evenly each time. Luca once relayed a story to me of someone trying all sorts of fancy tamping methods on a bottomless portafilter to get a good extraction, while a colleague dosed, smoothed with the palm of the hand, loaded and got a good extraction.
That story really distills the essence of my view on the subject. What it says to me is not that, categorically, tamping has no benefit, but rather that:
- good results are possible without tamping providing you’re prepared to accept the other shortcomings of that method
- poor tamping (be it by technique or equipment) has the potential to be worse than no tamping at all as it may result in applying vastly different compression rates to different parts of the puck, which is a perfect recipe for channelling (in this case its more than likely the level of updosing means the last bit of puck compression is being done by the group anyway which equalises the puck pressure, so the initial tamp probably has little effect). My own recent experiments with a bottomless portafilter support this view
- correct tamping has the potential to give the best of both worlds – an even compression of the puck plus reduced wear, maintenance and cleaning of group gaskets and showerscreen
So in my view, while its possible to get good results without tamping, it still very much has a place in espresso preparation, provided, as with all other factors of the job, technique and equipment are up to scratch. The nature of that technique and equipment are subjects in themselves.
Greg
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
Pretty well agree with all of that Sparky,
I think the "Golden Rule(s)" exists mainly as a guide to help get newbies off the mark so they have at least some chance of pulling decent shots from their hardware. Once a home barista has refined their technique and gained better understanding and confidence of the various elements of the process under their belts, experimentation soon has you trying out slight alterations to the tried and true. Its all good though once youve got the trainer wheels off.....
Mal.
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
While there seem to be some golden rules in espresso, it seems that all rules can be broken. A mate of mine, who only drinks espresso, is pretty fussy. Hes go my naked PF at the moment to check his shots. He is able to get very good shots from single baskets as well as double baskets (as determined by both the pour from the naked PF and TASTE). Another sacred cow that hes laid to rest is the need for a perfect tamp. Hes recently experimented with the "Merlo tamp", which is grinding finer, up-dosing and using that plastic disc that hangs off the grinder by pushing the PF up against it to flatten and "tamp" the grinds. Then he extracts awesome shots, transferring the aroma of the beans into the taste of the shot.
So while well worn advice may be the best way for a newbie to go towards achieving good shots, its by no means the only way. However, the one emphasis must be on consistency in preparation routine. All bets are off if you cant reproduce the shot, or something very similar to it.
Cheers,
Mark.
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
So what exactly is a properly poured ristretto Mal? :-?Originally posted by Mal link=1200754258/15#28 date=1201868004... a properly poured Ristretto is a most delightful way to enjoy espresso.... Will never sacrifice these to the God of LattesOriginally posted by coffeebreath link=1200754258/15#27 date=1201766772but I differ in that I reckon a double ristretto should pull to 25mls-30mls- I just think that double the volume of coffee (ie 2 x 7-10 grams) benefits from a slightly longer pour...just my personal taste.
Mal.
Im getting a tad confused with espresso variation definitions here ...
Perhaps this highlights exactly what m@ posted earlier, in that a request for a certain poison gets a blank blink! (Succinct & to the point BTW m@)
... any standard definition of an espresso based beverage is uncertain, because theres no agreement as to what the bloody standard is!
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
Yes, cb, this is the sort of volume I tend to work with too but I think maybe Wushoes was referring to the volume from a Single Ristretto, not a Doppio.Originally posted by coffeebreath link=1200754258/15#27 date=1201766772but I differ in that I reckon a double ristretto should pull to 25mls-30mls- I just think that double the volume of coffee (ie 2 x 7-10 grams) benefits from a slightly longer pour...just my personal taste.
Anyway, regardless of the size of the Basket used, a properly poured Ristretto is a most delightful way to enjoy espresso.... Will never sacrifice these to the God of Lattes
Mal.
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
Yep- But I reckon this topic is a good reason why! Alot of us whom (supposedly!!) know what we are talking about differ on exactly what it is.Originally posted by m@ link=1200754258/15#24 date=1201754929According to a couple of cafes Ive been to, the third definition of a ristretto is a blank look
By the way- I happen to agree with Wushoes and Mal- being that a true double ristretto should be restricted by grind- not by time, but I differ in that I reckon a double ristretto should pull to 25mls-30mls- I just think that double the volume of coffee (ie 2 x 7-10 grams) benefits from a slightly longer pour...just my personal taste.
However what I really wanted to say is this: when making coffee in a commercial environment it is impracticle to adjust the grind on a stepless grinder to make 1 double ristretto for 1 customer, so I guess a "true" double espresso at your local cafe is gonna be hard to find, even if they dont scratch their heads!
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
Yep,Originally posted by Wushoes - David S link=1200754258/15#23 date=1201746520I have two understandings of ristretto Fatboy...yours and also that a finer grind producing only 15-20mL of espresso in 30 seconds is acceptable.
This is the genuine article but because of a lot of other factors, a lot of PBTC just leave the grind setting as is and pull the shot short..... Not a true Ristretto in that the intensity and sweetness will be lacking,
Mal.
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Re: Synesso 14g and 21g baskets - Im confused !
Yep, a ristretto is a restricted shot, but I beg to differ on your understanding of what a double (or doppio) is.Originally posted by fatboy link=1200754258/15#22 date=1201736429My understanding of ristretto is that it is a restricted shot.
So the pour would be stopped around 20 seconds.
So doing a ~20 second pour with a double basket into one cup = double ristretto.
Doing a full 30 second pour with a double basket into one cup = double espresso.
A double ristretto/double espresso refers to the volume of liquid extracted - not the amount of grind crammed into the basket. So, a double ristretto is 40ml & a double espresso (a true doppio) is 60 ml. Whether you extract these respective amounts from a 7gm basket :P or a 21gm basket is immaterial as the descriptor (only to the quality of the shot).
Personally, for all my shots I only use a 16gm basket double spout PF but updose to fit closer to 20gms compacted grind. To extract a double ristretto, I waste a fair bit of grind in the quest for fullness & richness of flavour - I cram 20gms in, extract 20ml over app. 20 seconds, lose the puck, and repeat (so, 40ml from 40gms).
cheers,
Tony
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