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Dema.RAL tamper discussion

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  • #31
    Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

    Originally posted by 5A6F6265514D6168686B6B0E0 link=1226934588/38#38 date=1268531772
    I heard a story yesterday of a a cafe in a popular Victorian coastal town cafe all loaded up with Synesso...and serving dishwater....
    chris - my moneys on the burger joint in lorne...

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    • #32
      Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

      Originally posted by 5B786B6B787A72190 link=1226934588/36#36 date=1268529636
      Do the Demaral tampers press low enough for the slayer does anyone know?? Just concerned when lower dosing that it will not reach
      Short answer is yes it will work as it has a fair amount of adjustment built in (although I dont have spare Slayer here to test it!)

      Longer answer is: Even if there is not enough adjustment then Angelo from Demaral will custom build one to suit.

      That is the real beauty of working with companies like Demaral or Pullman, they are local and responsive to customer demands and can even create a one-off item to suit if required.
      (I know because both have made me odd sized tamps in the past)

      8-)

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      • #33
        Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

        Originally posted by 25040F0F0812610 link=1226934588/37#37 date=1268530795
        Originally posted by 1E3D2E2E3D3F375C0 link=1226934588/36#36 date=1268529636
        Do the Demaral tampers press low enough for the slayer does anyone know?? Just concerned when lower dosing that it will not reach Dont want to spend the money if its not going to work right. However i could use it on the gb5 but thats only one day a week... Help please!!
        Cant answer the question, but if you can operate a slayer to its full potential, it seems strange that you would you need a tamper with training wheels?
        Tamper with training wheels! Demaral Tampers are the only tampers you can use to compare a machines capabilyty against another,  eg:any machine with an E61 group can be truely compared against each other as this tamper eliminates errors in flatness and pressure, it has been used to compare a La Marzocco to a Synesso and to illustrate the consistancy of the drop from a Mazzer dosing chamber compared to that of a BNZ. A coffee roaster used it to illustrate the concistancy of their roast between batches, a franchisee was left dumbfounded when i asked him to pick a  shopper to come behind the counter and make her own coffee, after a short course in dosing and placing the handle in the group, she made the best cup of coffee the franchisee had seen come out of his machine.
        Not so bad for a tamper with "Training Wheels"
        Im not saying this tamper is for everyone, but thank god we live in a country where we are free to choose.
        Yes the Demaral tamper has a 12mm travel and by using a 10mm thick base the total depth can be 14mm.

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        • #34
          Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

          Im sorry, but Im obviously missing a lot in your explanation, and the capability of the Demaral.

          Originally posted by 527D74767F7C77767E130 link=1226934588/41#41 date=1268651284
          any machine with an E61 group can be truely compared against each other as this tamper eliminates errors in flatness and pressure
          Perhaps...provided dosing and time of extraction are equivalent, and the machines set up correctly. In other words the tamp is just one step in the process, not the be all and end all.

          Originally posted by 527D74767F7C77767E130 link=1226934588/41#41 date=1268651284
          to illustrate the consistancy of the drop from a Mazzer dosing chamber compared to that of a BNZ
          Originally posted by 527D74767F7C77767E130 link=1226934588/41#41 date=1268651284
          to illustrate the concistancy of their roast between batches
          If it can do that, particularly the latter, I want one!

          Originally posted by 527D74767F7C77767E130 link=1226934588/41#41 date=1268651284
          a franchisee was left dumbfounded when i asked him to pick ashopper to come behind the counter and make her own coffee, after a short course in dosing and placing the handle in the group, she made the best cup of coffee the franchisee had seen come out of his machine.
          I dare say most customers could probably pull a better shot with a basic machine, using the palm of their hand to tamp, than the coffee served at any franchise.

          Having said all that, I also think the Demaral is clever, as it eliminates some variables.

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          • #35
            Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

            There are many Manufacturers producing machines with E61 groups (BFC, ECM, Expobar, so on and so on) 90% are sourced through the same manufacturer, making them the same. The reference point being the depth of the shower into the group handle busket is "the same for all of them". A customer can walk into a shop with the Demaral tamper and compare the diferent makes of machines (Most good retailors have machines you can try before you bye).
            After adjusting the tamper for an E61 group, the depth it travels is the same therefor the pressure (Load) is the same for which ever machine you are testing, and assuming you are using the same coffe blend and grinder you should be able to see the difference between makes. (They may have the same E61 group but boiler size, heat exchnger size, Hydraulics, and Thermodynamics of the whole system are different) even the way an epension valve is set to open up will be different from one manufacturer to an other.

            Your last coment is a little unfair to the Francisers who spend thousends of $$ per anum on training and QA. Perhaps outlets like Coffee HQ, Caffenatics (Both usrers of La Marzocco) on most sites, Hudsons Coffee and many others will objet to tamping with the palm of the hand. You are to quick to blame the method, there are other factors in producing a bad coffee, ( Machine service or lack of it, poor choice of blend, Machine not set correctly to the blend, crappy burrs on grinder, The list is long, and I dont have the time to teach any one any more.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

              Originally posted by 4E61686A63606B6A620F0 link=1226934588/43#43 date=1268687187
              The reference point being the depth of the shower into the group handle busket is "the same for all of them"
              I am not so sure about that....We sell a number of different e-61 brands and the depth of the shower screen and basket anatomy do vary between brands...

              Without having used the tamper, I see how the dose height will be the same when used with a particular basket/shower screen combo.

              Achieving identical pressure, pre-supposes exactly the same dose which is challenging to achieve regardless of technology/skill. To extrapolate that across a variety of different brands, even if they are all e-61 and then declare that the only reasons for any perceived difference in the cup are the anatomy and calibration of the machine is a pretty big generalisation IMHO  :-?.

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              • #37
                Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

                Originally posted by 436269696E74070 link=1226934588/42#42 date=1268652950
                I also think the Demaral is clever, as it eliminates some variables.
                Me too.

                Originally posted by 466960626B6863626A070 link=1226934588/43#43 date=1268687187
                there are other factors in producing a bad coffee, ( Machine service or lack of it, poor choice of blend, Machine not set correctly to the blend, crappy burrs on grinder, The list is long, and I dont have the time to teach any one any more.
                Dema.RAL Tamper this is Coffee Snobs; I think a lot of us here already know whats on that list.

                Originally posted by 466960626B6863626A070 link=1226934588/43#43 date=1268687187
                Your last coment is a little unfair to the Francisers who spend thousends of $$ per anum on training and QA.
                How much is spent on training doesnt guarantee a good result.
                I train (not coffeee) and Im in QA, so I understand both QA and training.
                Passion to learn makes the difference.

                I dare say I could make a better coffee tamping with the palm of my hand than most coffee franchises.

                And to reiterate, I like the idea of your tamper as it does eliminate some variables. Its a step in the right direction for better coffee everywhere.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

                  I think that one should not over generalise to the for or against camp without first trying the said item

                  It would be prudent to trial it first and then make an assessment and report on it

                  KK

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

                    As previously stated many times, this tamper was specifically designed to "Bring up the coffee standerds in a franchise store" and "Maintain a level of acceptance" throuhout the day regardless of the user.
                    Im sure the new design from Demaral aimed at the professional barista will get all of your tounges wagging, leave you froffing from the mouth and asking "what next"?
                    July-August 2010
                    Andy Freeman and Di Bartoli Coffee will be the first to receive one and Coffee Kosmo (If i knew his mailing address)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

                      Originally posted by 507F76747D7E75747C110 link=1226934588/47#47 date=1268707486
                      As previously stated many times, this tamper was specifically designed to "Bring up the coffee standerds in a franchise store" and "Maintain a level of acceptance" throuhout the day regardless of the user.
                      Im sure the new design from Demaral aimed at the professional barista will get all of your tounges wagging, leave you froffing from the mouth and asking "what next"?
                      July-August 2010
                      Andy Freeman and Di Bartoli Coffee will be the first to receive one and Coffee Kosmo (If i knew his mailing address)
                      He will let ya know I am sure ;D And its Koffee Kosmo..

                      PS... Available in 54.5mm ?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

                        Having spent 15 years in QA (Automotive Industry) and a further 5 years at Comalco Research Center as a foundry technologyst, the symbol n comes to mind, " Sample size", this seemingly insignifficant symbol (n)  is required to workout, UCL, LCL, (Upper and lower control limits), p-charts, and standerd deviation calculations, before rejecting a batch and bringing a multi million$$ a day production line to a holt.

                        And what is missing from most of the site members that have made a coment? "n".
                        Dont assume anything, as the old saying goes, assume makes an !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

                          Interesting read and tamper.

                          Recent job I had one girl working for me that was a newbie to even using a tamper. Good milk skills but where she worked they used the psuedo tamper on the front of their grinder : (Guess where I dont drink a coffee) Even though I had shown her carefully where to dose to and how to use the fitted Pullman Tampers a few times over the weekend I still pulled her up as she had managed to jam the tamper at an angle into the basket and was about to lock in. The resulting shot would have certainly channeled and been rubbish.

                          If your working in a high volume operation with electronic dosing grinders and newbie or semi trained or even nuff nuff staff then I reckon they look like a great idea for improved consistancy in the cup. Maybe even consider doing a small press version like one or two of the pressure based ones?

                          As to a snob getting and using one maybe not, I still like control

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

                            I think Angelo needs a clap on the back for designing and manufacturing what is truly an innovative tamper for a market in need of some help. While most of the top echelon manufacturers strive to develop products that appeal to as wide an audience as possible, the simple fact is its impossible to make a product that is all things to all people because everyones needs are different.

                            As he states in post 36, the Dema.RAL tamper isnt primarily directed at snobs - its directed at coffee chains who dont know much about tamping and its in that environment its worth needs to be assessed. True its being spoken about here on CS where we ARE snobs; but all discussions need to be viewed in the context of the products target audience. So lets not talk it down just because its not what wed personally choose, when chances are were not even in the market it was primarily made for.

                            Greg

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                            • #44
                              Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

                              Originally posted by 0C232A2821222928204D0 link=1227148434/38#38 date=1268859641
                              And what is missing from most of the site members that have made a coment? "n".
                              Dont assume anything, as the old saying goes, assume makes an !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                              I didnt mention sample size but hope you dont think Im an !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Dema.RAL tamper discussion

                                Never! Thundergod, just a simple observation, and good old Flemington (Vic) 70s education.
                                And I thank you Greg.
                                Now! Reg Barber Tampers, US & Euro Curves, has anyone noticed the way the curve is dimentioned on his web site? By looking at this dimention as a constant, sugests that "as you reduce the diameter of the tamper the profile of the radious changes" not so critical when droping from 58 mm diam to 57mm diam, but have a look at how mutch the profile changes from a 59mm diam to a 53 mm diam. Basic Geomatry or Metrology would sugest the radious needs to be the constant in order to keep the profile the same for all sizes.

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