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  • #16
    Re: seasoning shot after backflush

    LOL...Sorry Fishing, I meant to say "every night".

    Chem and seasoning every coffee would drive me nuts too!

    I find after around 2-3 shots the machine is seasoned properly, but again I dont wait that long at a cafe or at home. 1 shot is sufficient for me to do a good enough job, lots of people recommend 2. Its up to you.

    When I use a machine a lot in a day, I back wash but with H20 only, I chem only at the end of the day. I know of a few that chem twice a day. Thats a bit much for me.

    Once a week is the longest you should leave it though. I realize the pain involved in cleaning every night, so it is really up to you what level you want to take it to. I got into the habit of cleaning once a day along time ago and now it is no pain to do it every night, I actually enjoy the process now.

    Every night is for the "best" result. Of course it will cost more in chem, but should save you a few shower heads etc, and you will be guaranteed a great coffee every time/day. I dont know about others but I can really taste it when a coffee has not been back washed from the previous day.

    As for the amount of chemical, a quarter of a teaspoon is more than enough. The scoops they give you are far more than you need.

    I read Lucas guide and it is very good, Im just trying to add some more to it as I have seen machines go in for service from once a week cleaning.

    Again its just my opinion as I search for the best cup, and the best cup seems to be consistency. I try to take out any variables in my coffee making, such as build up of stale coffee flavors from not washing every night and I try to get consistent in tamping and other areas.

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    • #17
      Re: seasoning shot after backflush

      After I clean my machine I just flush plenty of water through it, no seasoning shot afterwards. But I do think you need to keep your home machine very clean after removing the shower screen one time it looked like it had been dipped in tar, and thats cleaning with just a water backflush once a week.

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      • #18
        Re: seasoning shot after backflush

        Originally posted by MaxPower link=1227410944/0#15 date=1227607386
        When I use a machine a lot in a day, I back wash but with H20 only, I chem only at the end of the day. I know of a few that chem twice a day. Thats a bit much for me.
        Are you referring to cafe use? For a cafe pulling hundreds of shots per day I can understand that you would need to clean it that often, as it would be absolutely filthy after doing that many shots, but there is no way that a domestic machine doing just a few doubles per day would require a chemical flush every day! It would take me many months to put as much coffee through my machine as a cafe would do in a single day.

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        • #19
          Re: seasoning shot after backflush

          Originally posted by Bill link=1227410944/0#17 date=1227620388
          It would take me many months to put as much coffee through my machine as a cafe would do in a single day.
          Bill,

          Whilst that is true.... the problem with domestic machines is they dispense a couple of shots..... sit there still hot without any water flow and the oils etc bake on...... a bit latter they are turned on again.... and a couple of more shots poured etc.....

          The periods of inactivity are just as bad (possibly worse in some ways) than the commercial environment where constant use has a self cleaning action (to a certain extent)....

          So realistically one days commercial use probably equates to something like a weeks home use as far as crud build up..... I chemically backflush once a week. The amount of coffee through the machine is not an indication of how often a backflush is required..... have a look under the showerscreen after a week of intermittent use... Ill bet you will do a chemical backflush  

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          • #20
            Re: seasoning shot after backflush

            Originally posted by JavaB link=1227410944/0#18 date=1227621378
            Whilst that is true.... the problem with domestic machines is they dispense a couple of shots..... sit there still hot without any water flow and the oils etc bake on...... a bit latter they are turned on again.... and a couple of more shots poured etc.....
            Not quite right, because I backflush with water after every session. Not to mention all the water used for cooling flushes before the shot, which also puts quite a bit of water through the machine between shots.


            Originally posted by JavaB link=1227410944/0#18 date=1227621378
            So realistically one days commercial use probably equates to something like a weeks home use as far as crud build up..... I chemically backflush once a week. The amount of coffee through the machine is not an indication of how often a backflush is required..... have a look under the showerscreen after a week of intermittent use... Ill bet you will do a chemical backflush
            Still looks like new after 1 week of use. It takes 2-3 weeks of use for there to be any noticeable crud under the filter basket etc.

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            • #21
              Re: seasoning shot after backflush

              Originally posted by Bill link=1227410944/0#19 date=1227649527

              Originally posted by JavaB link=1227410944/0#18 date=1227621378
              So realistically one days commercial use probably equates to something like a weeks home use as far as crud build up..... I chemically backflush once a week. The amount of coffee through the machine is not an indication of how often a backflush is required..... have a look under the showerscreen after a week of intermittent use... Ill bet you will do a chemical backflush
              Still looks like new after 1 week of use. It takes 2-3 weeks of use for there to be any noticeable crud under the filter basket etc.
              By under the showerscreen I mean.... behind the showerscreen - remove the showerscreen and look at the top surface of the screen and the area above it inside the group. (Whilst this is a PITA with some machines - its dead easy with a La Cimbali). This area is subject to more heat than the area below the showerscreen..... resulting in faster build up than the basket or the inside of the PF.

              Whilst water back flushing certainly helps.... a chemical backflush (I use less than the recommended amount of detergent) does a brilliant job - especially keeping the 3 way clean.... and doesnt cost that much! Cheap insurance for these important parts..... and the quality of the espresso you drink.

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              • #22
                Re: seasoning shot after backflush

                I bet if you dug even further and unscrewed the dispersion block youd be even more surprised how manky it is. Its worth doing every now and then. I bet they usually never get touched. Most people (and understandably so) only take off the shower screen and give a good scrub, not knowing that ontop of the actual dispersion block its caked up with oil as.

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                • #23
                  Re: seasoning shot after back flush

                  As mentioned, its not to do with the amount of coffee. Any residue coffee can/will damage the machine if not properly maintained.

                  It is also a taste issue, imagine all the nice fresh coffee oils running over that week old caked on stuff.

                  Knowing your machine and how to pull it apart, maintain it, and get the best from it is really the next step in being a snob, after mastering shots and milk.

                  A bit extreme for most, but an interesting journey for others.





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                  • #24
                    Re: seasoning shot after backflush

                    Originally posted by JavaB link=1227410944/20#20 date=1227650769
                    By under the showerscreen I mean.... behind the showerscreen - remove the showerscreen and look at the top surface of the screen and the area above it inside the group.
                    Well I’m sure that has stayed pretty clean at my cleaning interval - it’s never looked particularly dirty whenever I’ve removed it, but I’ll take more notice of it next time.

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                    • #25
                      Re: seasoning shot after backflush

                      JavaB and YeeZa are right on the money:  A clean water backflush will not dislodge coffee oil.  Only detergent can do that.  (I should pause to mention that Im using oil as shorthand for whatever it is in coffee that is not water soluble; Im sure that its a mixture of compounds, some of which may not be oils, but oil is a convenient shorthand.)

                      If you dont believe me, remove your filter basket from your portafilter after pulling a few shots and take a look at the bottom.  There should be a bunch of brown oil on the outside of the filter basket, around the holes.  The bottom will be covered, particularly if you have been pulling very slow shots.  Replace the filter basket and run water through the portafilter.  Try running a litre or two through.  Remove the basket and take a look at the bottom - the oil will still be there.  If you can be bothered removing your shower screen, you could also take a look at the oil on the dispersion block before and after a clean water backflush.

                      The point of this is to say that Im pretty sure that backflushing with water only does not decrease the necessity of backflushing with detergent.  You can backflush with water until the cows come home; there will still be oil on your dispersion block, behind your shower screen. This oil will bake on and start to smell pretty rank. If you only backflush once a month, you will get to the point where you are pulling shots over month old baked on oil ... regardless of your usage. In fact, one could make an argument that more usage actually decreases the necessity for backflushing, seeing as the oil on your dispersion block will be somewhat soluble in subsequent shots - obviously, this argument isnt totally sound because we can infer that oil buildup can negatively affect the cup, regardless of how baked on it is.

                      Another way of making the point is like this: you can either remove the oil on your dispersion screen by using detergent and throwing it out, or you can remove it - or, rather, some of it - by pulling shots ... and drinking it.

                      Regarding the dispersion screen, I did the unthinkable and waited something like a year and a half or two years before I first removed my screen for cleaning. I did so because I just never really bothered to get a spare screen and gasket to have on hand in case something went wrong - given that my home machine has a screen held in place by the gasket. Eventually, my gasket needed replacement, so I went off and got the spares. The screen actually came off really easily by prying with a screwdriver and I steeled myself for the horrors that awaited, expecting the worst, but conscious that the water flow had never been bad and I didnt feel that the cup quality had gone down. This is what I saw:



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                      • #26
                        Re: seasoning shot after backflush

                        So you can see that the raw brass dispersion block is a little tarnished, as one would expect from normal use. Beyond that, I have to say that it was astonishingly clean. The photo below shows the shower screen, which had rather more gunk on it, but, still, you can see that there were absolutely no blockages.

                        I attribute this amazing cleanliness to weekly backflushing with cafetto, following the procedure that I outlined above. I suspect that leaving the detergent in the blind basket, locked in the head with the pump OFF for several minutes is a pretty important part of the procedure. The LM and Synesso machines have stainless steel dispersion blocks and following this procedure leaves them basically looking brand new.

                        Cheers,

                        Luca

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                        • #27
                          Re: seasoning shot after backflush

                          Now get out your 10c coin or wide blade screwdriver and take off the little dispersion block thingy in the middle and check out behind that too. I reckon heaps of nasties have to hide there in the little grooves.  Itook mine out and it was pretty black even though the outside looked clean(maybe not as clean as yours though   :-[)

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                          • #28
                            Re: seasoning shot after backflush

                            Maybe its just my monitor too but that grouphead looks heaps like a copper colour - threw me for a second there.... gee thats clean though - good stuff Cafetto

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                            • #29
                              Re: seasoning shot after backflush

                              Beautiful and clean there Luca.... and as you say "Its whats in the cup that counts".... and having the group clean is REALLY important to great tasting shots.

                              Yep, Cafetto is great for getting rid of the gunk in machines (also great for removing coffee oils from roasters by the way!)...

                              And like Luca, I leave the cafetto stand for a few minutes...

                              I do a couple of flushes as per recommendation on the pack..... then let stand for several minutes.... and then continue the procedure....

                              I find it works really well that way.... and everything stays nice and clean (and no yucky tastes either!)

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                              • #30
                                Re: seasoning shot after backflush

                                OK, Im convinced. Weekly detergent it is.

                                I did a detergent backflush on Sunday and since then the machine has only had 5 shots including the seasoning shot.
                                I poured a shot and then did a clean water backflush and then removed the showerscreen. Naturally it looked clean but when I ran my finger over it, a good smear of coffee oil was collected on it. Thats after only 5 shots!

                                Dan - It looks copper-coloured on my monitor as well but probably something to do with lighting??
                                BTW. I also removed the dispersion block screw and it looked very clean under it.  Ive only had my machine for just under 3 months. How often should it be cleaned?

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