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Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

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  • Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

    I have been tending toward the Minore but have read some issues re reliability and build quality. Any users of these machines like to comment - and how long you have used them? Am hoping to make a decision in the next day or so. Chris from Talk Coffee has been a great source of info.

  • #2
    Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

    First of all, I think that there are two particularly good sources of information available to you - actually using the machines, or having them demonstrated to you, and talking to Chris himself. There are quite a lot of differences between the two machines and actually having a conversation, with questions and answers, is much more likely to be productive than simply listening to peoples opinions over the internet.

    This is something that I wrote on the subject a while back on HB in response to someone implying that all HX machines are inferior to all dual boilers:

    "Dual boiler," when used in the exceptionally broad manner above, is just another buzz word. Were starting to see more and more dual boiler machines around ... does anyone seriously think that the kitchenaid machine would be any good? Why not buy two gaggias and put them side-by-side? Dual boiler, but in two different machines. Will either of these perform anywhere near as well as a synesso or a hotrodded marzocco? No. Ive only used a few domestic dual-boiler machines. Some were OK, I thought that one of them delivered far less clarity of flavour than a HX that I had used not too long ago. I havent used any that blew me away, but, like I said, I havent used very many at all. All that I want to point out is that its not necessarily true to say DB>HX.

    Similarly, all HXs are not created equal. There are a myriad of different factors at play; thermosyphon restrictors, flow restrictors, hx inlet length, boiler size, basket, water distribution ... Unfortunately, I think that its more or less impossible to judge how these things perform just from a statistics page on the internet alone, which will not mention most of these factors. Im not going to name the machines, because people seem to get irritated when I dont like their toys, but to give you a brief rundown of some of my (brief) prosumer HX experiences:

    Machine A: 100mL cooling flush, espresso went from dark to blonde relatively quickly. Massive steam power, pretty good steam tip.

    Machine B: 10mL cooling flush (just to clean the screen), picture-perfect pour. Steam OK for 6oz cappuccini, but not very abundant. Stock steam tip sucked.

    Machine C: 300mL cooling flush (!), 10 seconds to first drops, regardless of grind; espresso started off very dark, then finished an OK colour. Heaps of steam, but, again, stock tip sucked.

    Three different machines, nothing too different about them on paper, but Machine B leads the pack by a mile, IMHO.

    Chris Tacys bricoletta review is also worth reading on this sort of point. He noted that with both the water filtration unit and the flojet installed he got shots with great clarity of flavour, but with only one of them his results were a lot muddier. How the heck-a-roo can you tell that from a page full of statistics or a generalisation? Jim Schulmans current review of the Elektra Semiautomatica also does a very good job of pointing out subtleties.
    So the question really is "what do you want from a machine?" I had the great advantage of both getting to play around with a wide variety of machines and building up my barista skills on a wide variety of commercial equipment before chosing my domestic machine. As a result, I was able to find a machine that is a very good fit for my particular style of use and that - as Chris puts it - is the combination of minor irritating factors that upsets me the least.

    By surfing around the internet, you will probably find out the major irritations of each machine, such as the drip tray sizes and the build quality. By talking with Chris, getting a demo of the machines and using them you will be able to work out how important they are to you.

    At the end of the day, there will always be other machines out there and there will always be new machines coming out. If you have a machine that produces a great cup of coffee and that is capable of out-performing your barista skills, you are a winner in my books. It might well be the case that people with machine X would be better off with machine Y, but most people who own a prosumer machine seem delighted with it. So much so that I am always cautious of overly gushing internet reviews that are not backed up by substance.

    I have avoided offering my opinions on these particular machines on purpose because I really think that it is up to you to weigh the benefits, but I hope that my somewhat cryptic resonse both drives you to talk to Chris and try the machines out and is helpful,

    Luca

    PS. I will say this - the giotto looks better ;P

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    • #3
      Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

      Firstly, lets get some facts straight because much of the info in the previous post is incorrect....

      RRP of the Minore II is actually $2600  , The Giotto is $2550...Street prices are similar....

      And sorry Gonz, you can compare...I do it in the visuals, in the cup, in the performance and reliability and also in the build quality....So I regret that I disagree....

      And yes, buy the one you want shakey, but do it with correct information and an understanding of long term implications

      2mcm

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      • #4
        Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

        Man we need a splee checker on this thread!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

          i know i am not the person to be answering this, but what they hey......
          i have a minore I, and was comparing it to the giotto. the reason i went for the minore was the ability to change temp (even though i dont do it enough, but have done it and noticed differences), and the fact that it doesnt need a cooling flush. as my wife uses it, i didnt want to get into the whole cooling flush routine... but in reality, i run a bit of water through it before i brew anyway, to heat the cups/shot glass/clean etc. so its probably not much of a difference in reality.

          and the looks grow on you!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

            When choosing machines I also came down to those two choices and also spoke to Chris about them. I found the net had lots of conflicting and confusing information about both. There probably arent that many people who actually own both machines. I know if I could afford both I wouldnt have purchased either of them :-)

            I got a giotto and have been using it for about a month. I also got a bottomless portafilter last week, and I can safely say my biggest problem is not machine related at all :-)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

              So...Shakey purchased a machine...but was she the one to get the grinder??....Who knows?? The raffle administrator has refused to tell even me!! : The announcement of the winner will occur on Wed 20th December and the winner gets a grinder refund....

              There are 2 x Giotto and 2 x Minore II left....Somebody has to win!

              Will it be you??   8-)

              Chris

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

                Originally posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1165397921/0#7 date=1165483626
                The announcement of the winner will occur on Wed 20th December and the winner gets a grinder refund....

                There are 2 x Giotto and 2 x Minore II left....Somebody has to win!

                Will it be you??   8-)

                Chris
                Didnt you say in another post:

                "The minimal fine print...
                * Offer closes on 24th December at 5pm if the machine has not been sold... "

                So...   <cogs ticking over in brain>...   if you are going to announce the winner on the 20th and the offer closes at 5pm on the 24th there has already been a winner then....

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

                  Originally posted by Flo link=1165397921/0#8 date=1165494661
                  Originally posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1165397921/0#7 date=1165483626
                  The announcement of the winner will occur on Wed 20th December and the winner gets a grinder refund....

                  There are 2 x Giotto and 2 x Minore II left....Somebody has to win!

                  Will it be you??   8-)

                  Chris
                  Didnt you say in another post:

                  "The minimal fine print...
                  * Offer closes on 24th December at 5pm if the machine has not been sold... "

                  So...   <cogs ticking over in brain>...   if you are going to announce the winner on the 20th and the offer closes at 5pm on the 24th there has already been a winner then....
                  Whoops Flo! Thanks for pointing that out  :-[ Correct you are- I had said the 24th....I am going to change the date to the 20th...The reason behind this decision is so that the winner (assuming that the mystery machine has been purchased) will have the cash to splash by Christmas day...

                  It only makes sense.. No?? N.B members, I have modified the original posting...Regards

                  Chris

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

                    so what did she buy!! which one won... who is the king of the crop?

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                    • #11
                      Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

                      Giotto was the winner this time

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Expobar Minore II versus ECM Giotto

                        Off topic replies have been moved to [link=http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1165650668]This Thread[/link]

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