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Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

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  • #16
    Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

    Originally posted by 6B6E7777767A751B0 link=1332222307/14#14 date=1332290391
    Ive had varying feedback on this subject... But certainly low to mid-end machines seem to give much worse results with a loose tamper or no tamper at all, compared to top-end machines. ..Greg
    I do not think that this is necessarily the only factor. Low end machines tend to be owned by inexperienced users who use low-end grinders and are more likely to be using low-quality, stale coffee. They try all sorts of tamping technique and when they finally get two in a row that doesnt spray the counter top they share their "perfect technique to tamp with machine X" and the word spreads.

    I have made some very acceptable (albeit unremarkable) espresso using a thermoblock Krups espresso machine but paired with a quality grinder and fresh, properly-roasted beans.. I even used a little skill as well.

    Invoking the redundancy factor, if you find you need a particularly high or particularly low tamp force, there is most likely another problem the user is compensating for. (Lever machines may be an exception as they seem to like fine grind and low tamp force, from what I hear.)

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    • #17
      Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

      I have found that tamping force doesnt matter as much as some think, but mainly due to the difficulty in getting consistent dose amounts....for me the variations in dose amounts easily caused more variations in pour and taste than the tamping force, until I got some digital scales, now things are more consistent. Also for limited volume home use the variations in humidity from one day to the next can have just as much affect as anything else, which I know can be different in a commercial environment where you are trying to make many drinks consistently during the course of a day.
      Finally, I also have found that a good tamper does help at least as much as anything else.

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      • #18
        Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

        one error in the analysis is that is that the full 9 bars of pressure doesnt actually compress the puck.

        Not to mention that because there is water flowing out, and at force (around 3 bar which is line pressure) the actual pressure being exerted on the puck is a lot less than the full 9 bar.

        But yes the theory still stands.

        Heck the whole 30 second extraction rule doesnt matter as well. There is no valid reason why if you run the grind fine enough you cant run a shot in 10 seconds and get the same quality of espresso. I certainly can.

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        • #19
          Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

          Autti,
          A properly adjusted machine is 9 bar at the group, not the pump. So line pressure is moot. It is also 9 bar whilst extracting, so yes the coffee does get the full 9 bar.

          I dont believe that 10 sec claim at all - its a gusher and wont taste as good as it could at all.

          And finer grind = longer pour, not shorter. So a few errors there.

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          • #20
            Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

            Originally posted by 07362138393E35382E570 link=1332222307/18#18 date=1334007802
            I dont believe that 10 sec claim at all - its a gusher and wont taste as good as it could at all.
            I could not agree more with this, I have never been able to get anywhere near as good pour in 10s as 25-30s. I have even become such a snob that I sink it if it is a 10s pour because after tasting several when trying to get my grind, volume and tamp correct I learned that it just didnt taste good enough.

            As far as tamp force goes - and I am far from an expert... I couldnt agree more with Randy. I just aim at a good consistent and not overly firm tamp (when i was first trying to get my shots right I would use gorilla force) that is level with the right grind and dose.

            I still want a custom Pullman barista tamper though.... :

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            • #21
              Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

              Originally posted by 0534233A3B3C373A2C550 link=1332222307/18#18 date=1334007802
              Autti,
              A properly adjusted machine is 9 bar at the group, not the pump. So line pressure is moot. It is also 9 bar whilst extracting, so yes the coffee does get the full 9 bar.
              Sorry not the best wording. What i meant is that it doesnt actually exert 9 bars of pressure as there is water flowing through. Otherwise if you add the forces you would have 9 bar plus 1-2 bar of the force of the shot water which equals 10-11 bar, more than the pump is pushing. See how it works?

              I used line pressure as a shot flows around that rate, slower at the start obviously.

              My point is that saying a puck is being compressed by 9 bars of pressure is simply false, its a lot less simply because a) water is flowing through it and b) the puck is 100% resistant.

              And finer grind = longer pour, not shorter. So a few errors there.
              Finer grind + light tamp + big baskets. Easily achievable.

              Have a play around.

              What you should remember is the 15kg 30second rule is just a formula, you can change parts and achieve the same result which is a % of dissolved coffee.
              Saying that 15kg and 30s will get the best results is erroneous, there are plenty of different ways to achieve good espresso while deviating, they just arent as well known or used.

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              • #22
                Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

                Originally posted by 231716160B620 link=1332222307/20#20 date=1334012420
                Sorry not the best wording. What i meant is that it doesnt actually exert 9 bars of pressure as there is water flowing through. Otherwise if you add the forces you would have 9 bar plus 1-2 bar of the force of the shot water which equals 10-11 bar, more than the pump is pushing. See how it works?
                Yes and no. Many operations will use a Scace II device to set pressure. This will replicate flow during the shot.

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                • #23
                  Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

                  What do you mean replicate flow during the shot?

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                  • #24
                    Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

                    Originally posted by 053130302D440 link=1332222307/22#22 date=1334115527
                    What do you mean replicate flow during the shot?
                    replicate = imitate or copy
                    flow = pour rate
                    during = whilst the event is occuring
                    pour = what ends up in the cup

                    Might be worth googling Scace II  :-?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

                      I was at a bakery/cafe over the Easter break and we all ordered coffees etc. I got a Cafe Latte and I watched the young girl making it. Ground into the basket, tapped once, leveled/tamped with her palm and into the machine it went. Thoughts went through me head reminding me why I do not buy coffee when out as I am generally underwhelmed.  I do understand that milk will hide a lot but it was quite ok and I was pleasantly suprised.

                      BB

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                      • #26
                        Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

                        Originally posted by 63565B5C68745851515252370 link=1332222307/23#23 date=1334116880
                        Originally posted by 053130302D440 link=1332222307/22#22 date=1334115527
                        What do you mean replicate flow during the shot?
                        replicate = imitate or copy
                        flow = pour rate
                        during = whilst the event is occuring
                        pour = what ends up in the cup

                        Might be worth googling Scace II  :-?
                        Ok i had a look.

                        It still doesnt address that facts that a) a coffee bed isnt completely resistant and b) water is flowing out of the coffee bed and therefore the force isnt all compression.

                        Ergo there cannot be full pump force compression on a coffee puck.

                        Although the equation gets a lot more complex when you consider that the basket has a level of resistance as well which would also alter the force on the puck.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

                          Originally posted by 695D5C5C41280 link=1332222307/25#25 date=1334133445
                          a) a coffee bed isnt completely resistant and b) water is flowing out of the coffee bed
                          I understood that these were exactly the properties that Mr Scace designed his device to replicate - even down to retaining the same amount of water as is typically absorbed by the puck. His device wouldnt deserve its almost mythical reputation if it didnt do a good job replicating all the dominant factors.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

                            Originally posted by 4F7B7A7A670E0 link=1332222307/20#20 date=1334012420
                            My point is that saying a puck is being compressed by 9 bars of pressure is simply false
                            No its not. If your over-pressure valve is set to release pressure at 9 bar (as mine is), and the valve is open during the shot (as it is on my machine - as I can see the water bypass emptying back to the tank), then there must be 9 bar at the coffee puck. If there wasnt 9 bar at the puck the over-pressure valve wouldnt have opened.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

                              Originally posted by 0E2520204C0 link=1332222307/27#27 date=1334201918
                              Originally posted by 4F7B7A7A670E0 link=1332222307/20#20 date=1334012420
                              My point is that saying a puck is being compressed by 9 bars of pressure is simply false
                              No its not. If your over-pressure valve is set to release pressure at 9 bar (as mine is), and the valve is open during the shot (as it is on my machine - as I can see the water bypass emptying back to the tank), then there must be 9 bar at the coffee puck. If there wasnt 9 bar at the puck the over-pressure valve wouldnt have opened.
                              I not saying there isnt 9 bar of pressure.

                              Im saying that the 9 bar of water pressure isnt COMPRESSING the puck with 9 bars. I certainly agree that there is 9 bars of water pressure going through the coffee, but that is not the same as a 9bar tamp.

                              I will test this on my drill press with a load sensor.

                              I will bet you that 9bar tamp will compress the coffee a lot more than 9 bar water pressure. Ergo you cannot equate water pressure to tamp pressure directly.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Why tamping doesnt matter as much as you think

                                and.....It will all anount to about 2/10 of nothing difference.

                                In the meantime, Ill have a coffee :

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