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Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

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  • #31
    Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

    On that topic, I had a bit of a win the other day when I learnt that I could very quickly knock ten degrees off the group temperature of my europiccola just by pouring cold water over the group into a special patented tupperware container.

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    • #32
      Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

      I would just rather turn mine off and back on when needed 2 shots and maybe a 3rd if your quick but it is what it is.

      Thermal shocks on metal arent a great idea. Also reducing the outside temp wont cool the inner evenly.

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      • #33
        Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

        Originally posted by 2F282C232B213424232A4D0 link=1338355533/31#31 date=1339294029
        Thermal shocks on metal arent a great idea
        and yet, heat exchangers are a pretty bloody great idea.

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        • #34
          Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

          Originally posted by 405B51596D505D5C56320 link=1338355533/32#32 date=1339303408
          Originally posted by 2F282C232B213424232A4D0 link=1338355533/31#31 date=1339294029
          Thermal shocks on metal arent a great idea
          and yet, heat exchangers are a pretty bloody great idea.
          Dont actually have one in use currently. I like my levers natural and used as appropriate (got a Z9 HX lever to rebuild). Surface temps on the outside of a group after a cold bath will have little to do with the internal temps where the shot and or beans are sitting.

          On reduced power my 3grp Izzo takes around 50 minutes to get properly stable. Some flushes through one of the heads and I can pull shots at 35-40 but they are better left until later, the outside of the group is still cooler to touch until then even though the shots are OK earlier they are lacking.

          I still love my Pavoni for a quick morning brew however, but use it to get the best possible outcome from it given the limitations then shut it down and do it again later as required. And yes I have read a lot of how to make my Pavoni stable but its just not worth it.

          Like the PID part of this thread helping the limitations of the Silvia it is a help to getting toward a great shot but my personal view of PIDing a Silvia is maybe that time has passed and better options are out there these days.

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          • #35
            Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

            Originally posted by 25222629212B3E2E2920470 link=1338355533/33#33 date=1339324180
            [ my personal view of PIDing a Silvia is maybe that time has passed and better options are out there these days.
            Such as ??? ( in the same price bracket )

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            • #36
              Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

              well well well......just surfing around minding my own business and whalla....blow me down if I dont stumble across another great CS academic discussion which of course is now way off track.

              I would like to answer the question first and foremost.

              Should I buy a lever or pid my silvia?

              Impossible question. Thats like saying, should I buy a ute or fit a rotary engine to my holden commodore sedan.

              There is no comparison between any of them...and noone but you can answer the question. So the answer is, what do you want to do. Do you want to buy something completely different (lever) because your interest has been aroused and you might enjoy a journey dowbn a different path for a while, or do you want too make your silvia a little easier to manage?

              Only you can answer that and I hope my comments help you in your decision.

              As to the seemingly never ending "to pid or not to pid" discussion, ask yourself what you want to achieve, particularly if you are already well versed and experienced in using the silvia and you are already making great coffee. The pid may make it little easier to use, but will it make better coffee if you are already making great coffee and can manage it well without the PID? No. It will just be easier to manage.

              Most people that discuss tuning their HXs in these forums afe only regurgitating what theyve read. Only one part of tuning an HX is to do with thermosyphon restriction, and the ternms seems to rolls off peoples tongues as if everyone was doing it to their machine on regular basis.

              Every action has a re action. If you cool your thermosyphone by adding a restriction, so that you can make your coffee without doing a cooling flush, the fact is, that when you next have ten people over and you run a few coffees off in quick succession, you will OVERCOOL most of the coffees. That is, what most people dont realise, is that to play "boy espresso machine techs" and cool a machine so that it doesnt need much of a cooling flush to make your 2 coffees in the morning, is to cause it to ove4rcool when it is run at your next dinner part.

              The idea is, there is a lot more than meets the eye to all these endless discussions here, ending in people placing unrealistic demands on the equipment as well as their suppliers, to make the equipment do what they read it should do. Trouble is, a lot of the stuff they read, is not strictly correct, ending in the tail wagging the dog.

              Cutting back to the chase. The answer to the question is, decide what you want. A lever or a silvia ( no matter how well controlled the silvia is if you pid it). Abd only you can answer that.

              Hope that helps.

              Ah and in answer to the question immediately above and yes, not in the same budget.

              If the cost of pidding a silvia runs out to say somwehere around a thousand dollars, you would have to question whether it might not be a better idea to add not much more and buy an oscar (I dont sell oscar so this is not a "commercial" insert) OR, make it double and get into a good small end HX. They really are MUCH easier to use (to get consistent great results) than a silvia or to put it another way, people that have (realy have) mastered their silvia find good small end HXs very easy to use to get consistent great results. They are simply, more "forgiving" of poor management & technique by the operator.

              And after that, it just comes down to budget.

              Hope that helps.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

                If the cost of pidding a silvia runs out to say somwehere around a thousand dollars,
                ;D ;D ;D
                Vast majority of PID installs are done by owners /friends.
                Considering you can buy the PID parts for <$50 , your estimate seems a little excessive ..
                ...even on top of a new $650 machine !
                So the Oscar ( nice idea..but).. is still $600 more ...or nearly double $$$s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

                  Originally posted by 7F71787379282F1D0 link=1338355533/36#36 date=1339385045
                  If the cost of pidding a silvia runs out to say somwehere around a thousand dollars,
                  ;D ;D ;D
                  Vast majority of PID installs are done by owners /friends.
                  Considering you can buy the PID parts for <$50 , your estimate seems a little excessive ..
                  ...even on top of a new $650 machine !
                  So the Oscar ( nice idea..but).. is still $600 more ...or nearly double $$$s
                  Hes talking about the cost including that of the Silvia.....

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

                    Originally posted by 38232921152825242E4A0 link=1338355533/32#32 date=1339303408
                    Originally posted by 2F282C232B213424232A4D0 link=1338355533/31#31 date=1339294029
                    Thermal shocks on metal arent a great idea
                    and yet, heat exchangers are a pretty bloody great idea.
                    I dont see how a heat exchanger is a thermal shock.

                    A thermal shock can cause cracking in the steel, depending of course of the quality of the casting.

                    I see it at work all the time, albeit at higher temps, but I wouldnt pour cold water over a hot group.

                    Just my opinion

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

                      What do you think enters a heat exchanger then? Hot water?

                      Steel is another thing, Im talking about brass (pavoni and nearly all groups), which has excellent thermal transfer properties and is very resilient.

                      If thermal shocks weakened components in coffee machines, youd never see a functioning old one :-?

                      Sorry, this is ludicrously OT.

                      I would look into adding a thermocouple to your Silvia (see also gronking). Its cheap and very effective at allowing you a modicum of control over shot temperature.

                      Domestic levers of the Pavonis size have just as bad if not worse thermal management issues.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

                        Originally posted by 53554957524D51503E0 link=1338355533/37#37 date=1339385503
                        Originally posted by 7F71787379282F1D0 link=1338355533/36#36 date=1339385045
                        If the cost of pidding a silvia runs out to say somwehere around a thousand dollars,
                        ;D ;D ;D
                        Vast majority of PID installs are done by owners /friends.
                        Considering you can buy the PID parts for <$50 , your estimate seems a little excessive ..
                        ...even on top of a new $650 machine !
                        So the Oscar ( nice idea..but).. is still $600 more ...or nearly double $$$s
                        Hes talking about the cost including that of the Silvia.....
                        so was I..

                        New V3 Silvia = $650 ( or less !)
                        PID parts = $50 ( or less)
                        TOTAL = $700 (or less)

                        New Oscar = $1300

                        Difference = $600 (or more !)

                        Not really in the same price bracket !

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

                          Yes....and no.

                          We differ in our opinions.

                          "Most people" who are interested in pidding will buy a new silvia and have it pidded before delivery with a PID kit. So the bare cost of the parts to a tinkerer is not relevant. I can buy a muffler and have it delivered to my hand for $50.00, but when I buy it fitted to my car its atleast $300.00. Some others will buy a PID kit and install that, because they dont hae the foggiest where to buy what components, or after that, what to do with them/.

                          My opinion, is these pages give readers a false impression. It seems that "everyone is doin it" (whatever "it" is) when in fact, a very small number of people are doin it and the rest actually...are not and get professionals to do it for them. Wghich increases (rightly) the price.

                          Off topic yet again, and I hope that helps.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

                            Oh and while were at it. I have another consignment of Silvia /Rockys coming shortly EX FACTORY.

                            As usual, none of them will be sold for the silly price mentioned above. At risk of repeating, most clients want us to set up and show them how to use, and that means they pay a premium and not the silly "here is the box but dont talk to me as I am not being paid to talk back to you " price.

                            The box movers have moved in, but they havent taken over. Again, this forum giving a false impression of the real state of affairs which is, most people are not paying "box price" for the silvia. That would be...the silent majority.

                            Those that do, are usually the first to return because they blew the element which is not covered by guarantee (because it is mostly caused by the operator).

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                            • #44
                              Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

                              Well, certainly if we are considering those interested only in "buying" a good coffee with minimal personal input .....then yes, a PIDd silvia will cost more than $700.
                              However, you cannot ignore the fact that it is possible for an "interested " coffee enthusiast to have a new PIDd Silvia for $700, BUT not likely for him to find any other comparable new m/c for similar money ..
                              ..OR have i missed some hidden bargain gem somewhere ? :-[

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Should i buy a lever or PID my Silvia??

                                Still OT but whatever.....

                                Perhaps it is a peculiarity of our showroom, but very few clients that come in (whether they buy or not) want to or for that matter know enough to buy new equipment, and want to start modifying it.

                                That is, my experience of clients, is they want something that just works, straight up, and gives them what they would like. The equipment is a means to an end...classic example....cafe equipment.

                                I dont think our clients consider that to be "buying" a good coffee in that they could have bought a lesser type of equipment then modded it up. Its not what regular (the majority if you like) of clients look for in a new machine.

                                Just because a client is not interested in the specific workings of, or in modding equipment, doesnt mean he is not an "interested coffee enthusiast". I would call someone that is in addition to being interested in the coffee, also interested in the equipment, as an equipment enthusiast and the two dont have to run together.

                                I also dont consider expecting equipment to work well straight up, as meaning you only want minimal personal input.

                                Silvia in its ex factory standard form, in fact is a prime example of equipment that works extremely well as is, and nevertheless requires the client/operator to make more than a minimal personal input.

                                Just my 4.5 cents worth.

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