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  • Rate of failure Polls

    The rate of failure polls have been opened up so everyone can see the results.

    As the EM6910 has only been on the market a very short time its failure rate over the course of a year has yet to be determined. The polls will be left open long term to allow the numbers to continue to accumulate both over time and for newly joined members to vote.

    At the time the results were made public the shown rates of failure were:
    • Silvia: 5 of 28 for a 17.8% failure rate
    • EM6900: 4 of 9 for a 44.4% failure rate
    • EM6910: 2 of 11 for an 18.2% failure rate


    So right now the failure rate of the EM6910 is on a par with the Silvia. But at this point it is an unfair comparision as the Silvias have most likely been running a full year while the EM6910s have only been going for a few weeks or months at most. I expect well see the number of failures on the 6910 increase significantly over the next 9 months while the Silvia will most likely remain stable. The 6900, well what can I say. The numbers speak for themselves.


    Java "And the numbers are in!" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  • #2
    Re: Rate of failure Polls

    why do you say you expect a significant increase in the rate of failure of the EM6910 - is it all the electronics?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Rate of failure Polls

      are you posting the actual votes for the Silvia poll Java - its not up yet

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Rate of failure Polls

        Java,

        Cant say Im surprised.

        Even assuming all machines came out of the same factory with the same quality control- the Silvia (because of its simplicity as an semi-auto) has to be more reliable.

        Because of the complexity of the EM models (both autos) they have a far greater chance of failure- and the likelihood of this will increase with age.

        I just bought my son a R/C helicopter - made in China (very reputable brand). One channel on the radio was dead - out of the box. With some trepidation I opened the transmitter only to find it was beautifully built.... but one soldered joint... one of several hundred.... wasnt correctly soldered (a "dry" joint).... resoldered it and all is well in R/C heli land! The whole unit had passed QC (lots of nice stickers everywhere- and probably worked at time of testing) but 1 fault in 1000 joints.... not bad average -but enough to stop it working....

        Why the heli story? An auto espresso machine (with all its electronics) is just as prone to failure... a Silvia - or any other semi auto- has only a few points of potential failure.... so is intrinsically more reliable.

        The EM concept is fantastic..... the 6900 raised serious QC and design issues which most likely have been fixed with the 6910..... but the underlying reliability due to complexity is still there.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Rate of failure Polls

          Originally posted by ozscott link=1168392943/0#2 date=1168393897
          are you posting the actual votes for the Silvia poll Java - its not up yet
          Very good question..

          The EM6900 results wasnt a suprise... but the EM6910, as Java has stated, is still too early to gauge...

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Rate of failure Polls

            In defence of Silvias ---a lot of us bought these based on its reputation not just for making good coffee, but also because of its build quality.

            And such a reputation in an era where internet reviews can make or break, that reputation has to be earned, not bestowed....

            Its too simplistic an arguement to say that because it is a simpler machine without electronics it therefore must be more reliable.

            No, it didnt have to be. Rancilio could have chosen to use a Chinese clone of the Ulka pump.

            Rancilio could have chosen to use lightweight sheet metal panels instead of the robust cast-iron frame it has.

            The company could have used silicon rubber hosing throughout, but instead chose to use copper tubing in key places.

            It could have chosen to use cheap ligh-duty switches instead of the impressive rocker switches it has...

            And the list goes on.

            Silvia is, because Silvia is.

            --Robusto

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Rate of failure Polls

              Interestingly Robusto the pump on my Sunbeam Ristretto is a genuine Italian pump - I dont know what the EM6900s run.

              Cheers

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Rate of failure Polls

                Italian Ulka pumps are in most machines -- but my very first el cheapo machine had a Chinese clone, somewhat more powerful, but Ill put my money on the Ulka any day.

                -Robusto

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Rate of failure Polls

                  Originally posted by robusto link=1168392943/0#5 date=1168424068
                  Its too simplistic an arguement to say that because it is a simpler machine without electronics it therefore must be more reliable.
                  No, Sorry I beg to differ....

                  Because it doesnt have electronics it WILL be more reliable (reliability can be mathematically expressed - probability of failure increases as the square of the number of points of failure - and a printed circuit board loaded with components- each component is a point of failure)....

                  Rancilio could have chosen to use a Chinese clone of the Ulka pump.

                  Rancilio could have chosen to use lightweight sheet metal panels instead of the robust cast-iron frame it has.

                  The company could have used silicon rubber hosing throughout, but instead chose to use copper tubing in key places.

                  It could have chosen to use cheap ligh-duty switches instead of the impressive rocker switches it has...

                  And the list goes on.
                  And that improves the reliability even more.... because of the intrinsic quality of the components used.

                  So if you have an elcheapo Chinese clone ( Im not talking about the Sunbeam before everyone gets upset) packed with electronics and dodgy mechanical components.... probability of failure = 100%..... its just a matter of a short time after purchase!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Rate of failure Polls

                    [QUOTE=JavaB link=1168392943/0#8 date=1168425855]
                    Originally posted by robusto link=1168392943/0#5 date=1168424068


                    And that improves the reliability even more.... because of the intrinsic quality of the components used.

                    My point precisely.

                    -Robusto

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Rate of failure Polls

                      Originally posted by JavaB link=1168392943/0#8 date=1168425855
                      Originally posted by robusto link=1168392943/0#5 date=1168424068
                      Its too simplistic an arguement to say that because it is a simpler machine without electronics it therefore must be more reliable.
                      No, Sorry I beg to differ....

                      Because it doesnt have electronics it WILL be more reliable (reliability can be mathematically expressed - probability of failure increases as the square of the number of points of failure - and a printed circuit board loaded with components- each component is a point of failure)....
                      I beg to differ...treat the electronics as a black box system and you then only have one point of faliure

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Rate of failure Polls

                        There is one additional consideration with consumer goods today.... and that includes coffee machines.

                        Most manufacturers are trying to cut costs (and in most cases make items smaller, lighter = less freight, and cheaper) Why? because we, the consumers want it that way. We are prepared for things to fail, and will happily go off and buy another - probably of the same brand / type which failed.

                        Goods CAN be made reliable if the components are of adequate quality and of the correct rating.... and they will last for ever.... Not something the manufacturers generally want!

                        How many people have an old beta video recorder.... it didnt fail - it just became obsolescent. It was big, heavy and well built. Todays machines are light weight, thrown together and fail after a couple of years of use. Why? Because they are made to a price - a low price.

                        They are engineered to fail. Components in the electronics are run at or above their manufacturers design ratings.... they are cheaper than the components which would have a safety margin.... the chassis isnt machined aluminium but pressed steel which warps and goes out of alignment.....

                        Thankfully not all manufacturers have adopted this "throw away" mentality. The Silvia is a prime example of where a manufacturer has maintained the robust and quality component building methodology.

                        Often today (and again video recorders are a great example) electronics is used to compensate for the shortcomings in the mechanical engineering of the product. Video heads in beta machines stayed in alignment because the chassis was so robust. With a flimsy piece of tin as a chassis the spin doctors invented a new word.... "electronic tracking". Put simply, "we compensate for the lousy mechanicals in our machines by using electronics"..... and that will reduce the reliability.....

                        I prefer to see the least number of "unnecessary" electronic components in a device..... thats because I prefer to have things which last.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Rate of failure Polls

                          Originally posted by Wushoes link=1168392943/0#10 date=1168427709
                          I beg to differ...treat the electronics as a black box system and you then only have one point of faliure
                          Well ... sort of! :

                          But a very expensive single point of failure.......

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Rate of failure Polls

                            What separates the "rolls-royce" brands of electronic equipment from the stuff found in The Warehouse, Reject shops and similar is the good design AND the use of close-tolerance components. Resistors whose ohms are within 1 per cent of rating, not 10 per cent. Stuff like that.

                            They cost more, and in a mass consumer market will only appeal to a minority prepared to pay more for quality and durability.

                            I think I mentioned before that my Sony hi-fi VHS video, bought in 1989, is still alive and well (cost $1000 back then)....and will probably continue to outlast anything built today.

                            It is solid, has features way ahead of its time which the mass-market machines today still dont have.

                            Todays VHS is as light as a feather, with all components including motors and heads, tacked on to a printed circuit board which serves as the "chassis". When it heats up, it warps, and you simply throw the whole unit out and buy the next generation in the offing.

                            --Robusto

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Rate of failure Polls

                              Originally posted by robusto link=1168392943/0#5 date=1168424068
                              Silvia is, because Silvia is.

                              --Robusto
                              A great quote if ever I saw one.

                              Comment

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