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  • help selecting my new coffee machine

    This is my first post and I am no coffee expert although I do love it. So please excuse any inacuracies in my comments.

    Well the time is arriving where I am about to embark on upgrade of my much loved Rancillio Miss Sylvia coffee machine. For the past three years I have been using the Miss Sylvia and a Rocky Grinder. I mainly use it for cappuccinos and the occasional shot of black coffee. What I want out of the new machine is to extract a better and more flavoursome shot of coffee, brew and steam at the same time and produce wonderful microfome for coffee art.

    I have looked at a couple of machines and then finding the choice a little bewildering. The machines that I have looked at so far include
    ECM Giotto
    Expobar Minore
    Iberital LAnna (one group machine)

    My observations (including information based on what I have been told) are as follows:-
    ECM Giotto- is a beautiful looking machine. However I was told that they are having significant quality-control issues at present with the number of machines being returned due to the fact that they leak. Obviously that is a concern as build quality is important.

    Expobar Minore - is a double boiler machine which will give me ample steam and excellent temperature control over my shots. I was told the fine tuning and maintenance of water temperature would improve the taste of my coffee shots and also be much more forgiving than my existing Rancillio Miss Sylvia. One slight concern that I have is that this machine is made in Spain and I wonder how the quality of components and manufacture compare to those machines made in Italy.

    Iberital LAnna (one group machine) - has a rotatory pump and thus will deliver water to the group head in a more consistent fashion resulting in a better crema. However I was also told that despite the better Crema I should expect a better tasting coffee from the Expobar Minore as it offers better temperature control to the water. The Iberital LAnna also has the convenience of being able to program coffee doses into buttons. I have never had this feature and I am wondering for those who do will have it if it is a good value in the domestic environment.

    Finally, I understand that Diadema make a machine in a similar price category. I havent seen it and Im not sure how good it is.

    Id love some comments and feedback on the opinions that I have expressed. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.


    coffeeNcake

  • #2
    Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

    Hi coffeeNcake and welcome to CoffeeSnobs....

    Ill leave it for others who have more experience with the machines you mentioned to get into specifics.....

    But your statement:
    " What I want out of the new machine is to extract a better and more flavoursome shot of coffee, brew and steam at the same time and produce wonderful microfome for coffee art."

    has inspired me to reply in general.

    Pretty much ANY decent machine will produce great coffee of a similar standard given the correct technique for that machine... that might mean cooling flushes, heating flushes, thermal surfing etc.... basically differnt machines have different requirements to get a "god shot" - but all quality machines (including Miss Sylvia) can do it!!

    The difference comes down to how much fiddling you must do to get it.... and in just about all cases you will have to do some.... Even the best machines Synesso and LM require a little fiddling to get the best shots... but add another zero to the price range you are looking at if you want either of those!!

    A HX machine or a dual boiler will produce steam for texturing milk at the same time as brewing.... An HX will probably require a bit more fiddling to get that God shot than a dual boiler- for the first shot in a sequence- but for multiple shots the HX will probably win.... its all to do with boiler capacity and how the machine are/can be tuned.

    I guess what Im trying to say is there is no black or white answer to your query.... nor is there a magic solution to getting fantastically better coffee than Miss Silvia can produce....

    You can get more cups per hour, texture milk and brew at the same time, reduce the fiddling compared to what you currently have to do to get that God shot...... all by upgrading...... but the flavour of the product (assuming Miss Silvia has been used properly) isnt likely to be that much different.

    Talk to the site sponsors, they will honestly tell you the pros and cons of each and you might even get a demo to help you judge the machine best for you....

    As you can see I have a restored old La Cimbali commercial 2 group.... I love it and it makes awesome coffee... but only when I use it the correct way....

    The best solution to great coffee is to improve the skill set of the person behind the PF.

    EDIT:

    By the way, the items of importance in getting the best flavour and mouthfeel in coffee are (in order of importance).

    1. Barista skills.... knowing how to get the most out of your machine, grinder, bean selection etc.
    2. Beans... must be fresh (no more than 3 weeks post roasting) and freshly ground - within 3 minutes of using them.
    3. a quality grinder.... capable of fine adjustments so you can track the coffee bean as they age - by making the grind finer (probably once or twice per day if the beans are fresh)....
    4. a coffee machine...

    And, yes the coffee machine is at the bottom of the list as it has least impact (but of course must be a quality machine)

    Many of us here roast our own beans to ensure freshness. If you dont want to do that then find a local roaster and buy just enough beans so that you can consume them in a couple of weeks (unless you can guarantee they are roasted on the day of purchase - which will then give you 3 weeks)

    and, most importantly, grind them just before use.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

      You will probably find that some of the site sponsors will sell at least 2 out of the 3 machines you have listed. So your best bet would be to contact them and find out about them head to head. Are you near a capital city? That may help you decide who is best to speak to from the sponsor list. They all seem to work by territory to a certain extend and from my experience with site sponsors are very helpful people with integrity right through the enquiry to after-sales service.

      I bought my Expobar from TalkCoffee and am very pleased with it. I have only had it since the end of October but it hasnt missed a beat. Is not the Minore obviously but there are Minore owners on this site who should be able to give you feedback with honesty. There is a thread that some people have shared the cons of their machines on which would well be worth a read for you I am sure.

      I look forward to how this thread pans out and to see what you decide on.

      Oh Yeah! Welcome to Coffee Snobs

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

        Thanks for your replies. Firstly, regarding where I live-I live in Melbourne. As you could probably gather I have just seen these three machines in a local shop. Most of the advice and information that I received was from the salesperson.

        I buy coffee in small quantities (two hundred grams at a time), store the beans in a vacuum sealed containers and grind the beans just before I brew. I find if the coffee is more than two weeks old it starts to taste stale.

        I can get a good shot and good microfoam from the Miss Silvia however as you point out it can be quite fiddly and the results vary sometimes for reasons that I am not aware of. I understand that the machines that I mentioned a more forgiving and require a lot less playing around with to get a good shot and good microfoam. It takes the Miss Silvia quite a while to get the steam up the pressure and then the steam is very moist and a lot of the moisture needs to be bled off.

        I guess what Im looking for is a machine that will deliver both excellent shots and excellent microfoam more consistently and more forgivingly than I can currently get.

        coffeeNcake

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

          Ah, Yes it is possible to get a machine which is more user friendly....

          Check out the site sponsors in Melbourne. Unlike many salesmen at other retail outlets, the site sponsors are very knowledgeable and will provide honest advice... resulting in a happy customer.

          By the way, dont store beans in a vacuum container.... it sucks out the carbon dioxide and the volatile oils from the beans.... both of which make the crema and add to the body and taste of the coffee....

          Keep them in a zip lock bag with a one way valve (most suppliers sell beans in these) .... when you have taken out what you require, zip it up, squeeze out as much air as you can, and then store the beans in the back of a dark cupboard.

          Also whatever machine you end up buying, think about getting a Greg Pullman fitted tamper to suit your baskets.... My wife couldnt believe it was the same bean I was using after I switched tampers from a 58 mm standard tamper to one of Gregs. The coffee was smoother, more full bodied... basically so much better- just because it tamps right to the edge of the basket.

          Good luck with your purchase (might need to talk new grinder as well by the way.)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

            Originally posted by coffeeNcake link=1169630174/0#0 date=1169630174
            This is my first post and I am no coffee expert although I do love it.  So please excuse any inacuracies in my comments.

            <snip>I have looked at a couple of machines and then finding the choice a little bewildering.  The machines that I have looked at so far include
            ECM Giotto
            Expobar Minore
            Iberital LAnna (one group machine)

            My observations (including information based on what I have been told) are as follows:-
            ECM Giotto- is a beautiful looking machine. However I was told that they are having significant quality-control issues at present with the number of machines being returned due to the fact that they leak.  Obviously that is a concern as build quality is important.

            Expobar Minore - is a double boiler machine which will give me ample steam and excellent temperature control over my shots.  I was told the fine tuning and maintenance of water temperature would improve the taste of my coffee shots and also be much more forgiving than my existing Rancillio Miss Sylvia.  One slight concern that I have is that this machine is made in Spain and I wonder how the quality of components and manufacture compare to those machines made in Italy.

            Iberital LAnna (one group machine) - has a rotatory pump and thus will deliver water to the group head in a more consistent fashion resulting in a better crema.  However I was also told that despite the better Crema I should expect a better tasting coffee from the Expobar Minore as it offers better temperature control to the water.  The Iberital LAnna also has the convenience of being able to program coffee doses into buttons.  I have never had this feature and I am wondering for those who do will have it if it is a good value in the domestic environment.

            Finally, I understand that Diadema make a machine in a similar price category.  I havent seen it and Im not sure how good it is.

            Id love some comments and feedback on the opinions that I have expressed.  Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.


            coffeeNcake

            Hi CoffeeNcake,

            Im Melbourne based and am happy to discuss pros and cons of each with you. Firstly, all the machines you have mentioned will do the job and do it very well- but they are different and have differing features. You need to choose the right machine (i.e feature set) for you...

            Id just like to publicly expand on your comments in the original post regarding the ECM Giotto and quality control issues.

            In August 2006, ECM Italy had sold and produced more Giotti than in the whole of 2005. Due to world demand, the volume of machines being built and pressure on suppliers of components, ECM engaged a second company to produce the tank cradle which supports the tank.

            Some of these cradles (a total of 15 in well over 1000 Australian units) were manufactured outside normal tolerances and this was not evident in assembly of the machines. The machines with faulty cradles did have small leaks at the junction of the tank and cradle. ECM acted rapidly to create a short-term workaround, inform their Australian machines sales outlets and then organised prompt replacement of all faulty cradles under warranty.

            EVERY Giotto imported into Australia now undergoes a full bench-test by ECM at the factory to ensure that it is faultless.

            In addition, reputable suppliers also bench-test machines before they freight them. I do this with every machine which comes through our warehouse.

            Be confident that in the initial list of machines you have discussed in more detail, the ECM machine has a clear build quality advantage- and thats before you look at the actual performance- espresso and milk texture are both sensational (in the hands of a competent operator ). You can buy ECM with full confidence that you have the support of a highly committed and passionate Australian network who consistently deliver outstanding product and service. They do what they do because they love coffee.

            regards

            Chris


            Comment


            • #7
              Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

              Welcome cNc (love the name),

              I have the Expobar Leva and have had it for a few months more than Coffeechaser
              has had his Exi.

              Also very happy with it (you get used to the ugly feet).
              I dont have a problem with the quality of the finish.
              A site sponsor may give you more info on component quality, but having said that, I was very specific about quality and robustness when buying mine.
              So if you decide the Minore Id say it should stand the test of time.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

                Thanks for all the replies
                Glad you like the name Thundergod


                With regard to the Expobar Coffeechaser & Thundergod- is it fiddly to use? Are you happy with the espresso and milk texture?

                Also Chris - thanks for your reply. I will call you next week.

                coffeeNcake

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

                  Thundergod and I have different models to each other and neither of us have the minore. Mine is the Office Semi-auto and is simple to use. Just has a brew switch and 2 knobs (one for steam the other for hot water). Has no volumetric programming so is probably the easiest machine you could get in that respect. The downside would be the low showerscreen so you cant updose to the extend of some other machines. Chris will steer you right with pros and cons of machines and you can decide what works for you. Thundergod and I both bought them from Chris at Talk Coffee actually.

                  Mine is an entry level Heat Exchange machine and there are plenty of good options that would be better than mine, but for a price. And if I had of had a bigger budget I would have considered others including going up the food chain in the Expobar line up.

                  I am very happy with what I can produce with the machine with both the espresso and steam. I did buy a different steam tip straight away after advice from another owner of an Expobar. When I did a course and took my machine the instructor was very impressed with the espresso as well. I have never done a head to head with another machine to compare quality with though. If you get the opportunity to visit a site sponsor and compare machines than that would be the best bet. At the end of the day it is how it works for you that matters.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

                    Im skeptical as to whether your milk texture will improve by buying a larger machine. I have used a range of commercial machines and my silvia produces microfoam as good as any. and my latte art is getting pretty good too.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

                      Originally posted by muppet_man67 link=1169630174/0#9 date=1169811971
                      Im skeptical as to whether your milk texture will improve by buying a larger machine. I have used a range of commercial machines and my silvia produces microfoam as good as any.
                      Yep, having had a solis SL90 (single boiler machine) it easily made great microfoam...

                      My La Cimbali will texture a bucketload of milk in no time (well a 1.5l jug half full of milk in 30 seconds or so.....) but it is a PITA to get true microfoam.... Ive got it mastered - just!!

                      Its just too powerful and the whole process is too quick. A two hole tip makes it easier - but then its no faster than the Solis (and I suspect the Silvia) and the result is about the same quality as those machines.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

                        Originally posted by muppet_man67 link=1169630174/0#9 date=1169811971
                        Im skeptical as to whether your milk texture will improve by buying a larger machine. I have used a range of commercial machines and my silvia produces microfoam as good as any. and my latte art is getting pretty good too.
                        Sorry muppet- I have to disagree with you on that one. The Silvia does have huuuuuuge steam- but requires a big purge and is a touch fiddly to work with (you either bend the wand or tilt the jug). On the other hand, walk up to a Giotto or a Minore II for that matter and you have what is the perfect prosumer steam wand- cool touch, two perfect holes and ball-jointed. The right size jug and correct volume of milk will actually texture itself.

                        This wand is one of the easiest wands I have ever worked on. Sure, the Silvia is just as quick and produces great microfoam, but you work a heap harder for the same quality with a Silvia wand....

                        2mcm

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

                          Originally posted by JavaB link=1169630174/0#10 date=1169812780
                          A two hole tip makes it easier - but then its no faster than the Solis (and I suspect the Silvia) and the result is about the same quality as those machines.
                          Im presuming that youre talking about the prosumer 2 hole tip (that Isomac one that Coffeeparts sells)? If thats the case, you might want to try a commercial tip with two holes; the holes will be larger and let out more steam. Im currently trying out a monstrosity at home thats basically a (coffeeparts generic) Synesso tip with two holes blocked. Its fast and relatively easy to use as long as you dont position it stupidly to start off with, but I need to teflon tape it on, as its not a great fit, and its a bit finnicky to clean. Amazing how the results seem to come down to the tip.

                          Cheers,

                          Luca

                          PS. Reto from Terra Keramik actually put this photo up on his webpage - how cool is that! Ill have to take a better photo for him with more light at some stage.



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

                            Originally posted by luca link=1169630174/0#12 date=1169815291
                            Im presuming that youre talking about the prosumer 2 hole tip (that Isomac one that Coffeeparts sells)? If thats the case, you might want to try a commercial tip with two holes; the holes will be larger and let out more steam. Im currently trying out a monstrosity at home thats basically a (coffeeparts generic) Synesso tip with two holes blocked. Its fast and relatively easy to use as long as you dont position it stupidly to start off with, but I need to teflon tape it on, as its not a great fit, and its a bit finnicky to clean. Amazing how the results seem to come down to the tip.

                            Cheers,

                            Luca
                            Luca,

                            Yep thats the tip Ive used.... I actually thought of drilling out the holes to increase the steam flow...... might still do that but not sure if the angle of the holes is the best ...... but might be worth a try as Ive nothing to loose...

                            Do you know what size holes the Synesso tip has?

                            And great photo by the way

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: help selecting my new coffee machine

                              Hi Java,

                              Sorry; NFI how big the Synesso tip holes are.

                              That coffeeparts tip is really easy to use, but, as you said, SLOOOOOW. And if it being slow on your 15L boiler machine doesnt put an end to the rumor that boiler size is the sole important factor when it comes to steaming, then I dont know what will! If I were handier and more knowledgeable, Id drill the tips out, too. I reckon that that might just be the perfect prosumer machine tip, with the ridges removed, of course. Another appoach might be to drill a hole of the same diameter inbetween the two other holes (ie. pointing straight). Do let me know if you do this and how it goes, as I might be able to get my hands on some blank steam tips soon ...

                              And great photo by the way Smiley
                              Thanks! But it was quite dark when I took it, and the tip was a bit dirty :-[

                              Cheers,

                              Luca

                              Comment

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