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Why are tampers so expensive?

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  • #31
    To me it doesn't matter if its exactly 15kg. It's just a matter of consistency only.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by okitoki View Post
      To me it doesn't matter if its exactly 15kg. It's just a matter of consistency only.
      I think it's something that seems daunting but that you pick up quickly out of necessity. There's no substitute for actual practise.

      For me, as long as the puck is sufficiently compressed (ie density has been normalised across the entire puck) and it doesn't vary greatly between one shot and the next, it is acceptable.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Darkfalz View Post
        Some may disagree, but the 15kg pressure thing can be a bit misleading. Anywhere from about 10kg to 30kg will produce similar results with the same dose, IMO. The reason a heavier tamp can "feel" like it makes a difference is because the heavier tamp is often compensating for a dose which is too high. It is therefore the dose that is making most of the difference, not the tamp.
        I found early on with the EM0480 grinder that one click on the grinder made a significant difference to the pour. (this was in the days when I was using stock equipment) With a given bean, 1 click made the difference between a very good pour and a choker or a gusher. Given the slop in the selector it made things... awkward... in trying to dial-in a bean.

        Tamping on the other hand could take a given grind and move it from drinkable to 'nice-to-drink', or from drinkable to 'might-as-well-drink-instant.'

        My opinion (for this grinder at least) is grind moves the quality significantly (say 25%) and tamping moves it about 10% of that (say 2.5%)

        On the other hand, progressive tamping has made a HUGE difference in both quality of pour and consistency of grind - a tamper that enforces a particular pressure of tamp seems to me a tool that will not let me change what I do to improve. An Espro cannot deal with progressive tamping and it seems to me, it cannot deal with nutating tamps, or NSEW or Weiss tamping either.

        It's like a hammer that will only drive nails vertically down - great for what it does but not so good if you need to hammer on an angle or horizontally.

        But the only factor that really matters is... does what you have and what you do give you a good-enough coffee?

        Personally I am the type who likes to find out just how good 'good' is, so I try things - and my coffee has shown the results.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
          Tamping on the other hand could take a given grind and move it from drinkable to 'nice-to-drink', or from drinkable to 'might-as-well-drink-instant.'
          This is true, but I would say this isn't really a question of tamping, but dosing. You're tamping harder to achieve the same puck basket height with a greater dose. But it's the dose of the coffee that makes the difference, not the tamping. Good tamping ensures the puck surface isn't compromised when the water hits it, but once the puck is soaked, it's the volume and density of coffee in the basket that controls the flow, not how hard you pushed it down to begin with.

          I noticed the clicks on the grinder made a bigger difference if you were routinely over-dosing. By getting the dose right, a slightly wider range of settings were usable.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Darkfalz View Post
            . Good tamping ensures the puck surface isn't compromised when the water hits it, but once the puck is soaked, it's the volume and density of coffee in the basket that controls the flow, not how hard you pushed it down to begin with..
            If what you're saying is that ramping doesn't affect total resistance when soaked, I have to disagree.

            If, with equal dosing, you tamp much harder (or softer), the shot time WILL change accordingly.

            I'm pretty sure tamping affects wet density; the fact that after a shot, the puck expands against the showerscreen, is likely due to the sudden change in pressure when the vent solenoid operates.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Andy View Post
              We sell the range of Cafelat Tampers and they are beautiful, functional, well made and affordable too!
              CoffeeSnobs - BeanBay - Cafelat Coffee Accessories
              Beautiful gear Andy...

              Must admit that I love those traditional wood handle jobs...

              Mal.

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              • #37
                Sigh. Ok, so after using the plastic tamper with the Gaggia I'm now convinced that tampers matter, even if they are expensive

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                • #38
                  You picked up a classic?

                  In fairness, the included plastic tampers are absolutely useless. You can get something miles better off eBay for twenty bucks (milled aluminium 58mm)

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Darkfalz View Post
                    This is true, but I would say this isn't really a question of tamping, but dosing. You're tamping harder to achieve the same puck basket height with a greater dose. But it's the dose of the coffee that makes the difference, not the tamping. Good tamping ensures the puck surface isn't compromised when the water hits it, but once the puck is soaked, it's the volume and density of coffee in the basket that controls the flow, not how hard you pushed it down to begin with.
                    Research into flow through packed beds (which included coffee amongst other things) found it is the puck thickness, porosity (I.e. how much space there is between grind particles) and interestingly, the ratio between particle size and bed diameter, which are the most important factors determining flow resistance.
                    Tamping will influence the first two two of those factors, to a point. As will dose/grind

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ThankDog View Post
                      Hmm, interesting. See, I would've assumed that there was a standard basket size so that tampers would also come in standard, appropriately fitting, sizes. Seems I was mistaken in thinking that!
                      "Appropriately fitting" - they come in approximately fitting, but not appropriately fitting.

                      as for lathes and making your own: CCHS

                      (I made my own 52mm tampers because I couldn't justify paying for a nice tamper at that size. I have a pullman/VST matched combo for my 58mm machine, though.)

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Hildy View Post
                        as for lathes and making your own: CCHS
                        Intriguing... would be plastic (or whatever it is that they use in those things that isn't metal) but still, something that is custom-made to fit exactly would be massive step-up from the tamper included with the Gaggia.

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                        • #42
                          Yes.

                          tenchars.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ThankDog View Post
                            Intriguing... would be plastic (or whatever it is that they use in those things that isn't metal) but still, something that is custom-made to fit exactly would be massive step-up from the tamper included with the Gaggia.
                            I've used POM (delrin) plastic and 6061 Al alloy. Both are ok and haven't dented too badly by dropping them on the floor.

                            I now have a new idea for a tamper - one that only tamps to a certain height below the lip of the basket, so that what is consistent is puck height, rather than tamping pressure. I wonder if this would be good.

                            (maybe do it with a little screw on ring.)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Hildy View Post
                              I've used POM (delrin) plastic and 6061 Al alloy. Both are ok and haven't dented too badly by dropping them on the floor.

                              I now have a new idea for a tamper - one that only tamps to a certain height below the lip of the basket, so that what is consistent is puck height, rather than tamping pressure. I wonder if this would be good.

                              (maybe do it with a little screw on ring.)
                              Combine it with a pressure gauge so that you know you're getting both right at the same time since if you put too little coffee in with too fine or too course you won't get an even tamp...

                              Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                              Sorry- just incorrect. Grind size has absolutely nothing to to with whether tamp is even or not. That is dictated by the nut on the group handle.
                              ...and that way you could also adjust your dosing to match

                              I think we could be brilliant as a team. We could revolutionise the entire industry! We could be Gods!

                              Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                              It's not a new idea....Demeral did it and there is another currently on the market.
                              ThankDog, letting it go to his head and being corrected since 2014.
                              Last edited by ThankDog; 1 January 2014, 05:46 PM. Reason: Edited to correct unfunny misinformation.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ThankDog View Post
                                ...since if you put too little coffee in with too fine or too course you won't get an even tamp
                                Sorry- just incorrect. Grind size has absolutely nothing to to with whether tamp is even or not. That is dictated by the nut on the group handle.

                                Originally posted by Hildy View Post
                                I now have a new idea for a tamper - one that only tamps to a certain height below the lip of the basket
                                It's not a new idea....Demeral did it and there is another currently on the market.

                                Comment

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