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  • #16
    Re: Basket case

    Youre deafer than me.

    And only coffee goes into my baskets.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Basket case

      rofl - Ok ridged ...so as he picks his mind up out of the gutter, hes heard mumbling, "still like to know what the others are called"

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      • #18
        Re: Basket case

        Originally posted by Dennis link=1173864679/15#16 date=1173875011
        rofl - Ok ridged ...so as he picks his mind up out of the gutter, hes heard mumbling, "still like to know what the others are called"
        Ridgeless

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        • #19
          Re: Basket case

          Originally posted by MatthewG link=1173864679/15#17 date=1173875228
          Originally posted by Dennis link=1173864679/15#16 date=1173875011
          rofl - Ok ridged ...so as he picks his mind up out of the gutter, hes heard mumbling, "still like to know what the others are called"
          Ridgeless
          Humphh! could have at least translated that to Italian..."senza cresta" Sounds much more exotic.

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          • #20
            Re: Basket case

            Back on topic... : (edit: where topic is that being discussed before the diversion at http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1173864679/14#14)

            A coarse grind will reach saturation pressure with less movement than a fine grind but while I think a fine grind would require a little more pressure to get there I dont think the difference would be that great. In either case youre compressing bits of ground coffee into air pockets and displacing the air; youre obviously not compressing the coffee grounds themselves, so the only difference in pressure would be that required to push the slightly smaller bits of coffee into the smaller air pockets.

            The effect of displacement is pretty hard to gauge, because a side result of a previous experiment with a convex tamper showed that any particle movement that does happen does so within the puck, so its pretty hard to measure that. But those experiments were done with a fitted tamper so I wouldnt expect to see a lot of movement there.

            I wouldnt think that the displacement around the side of a not so exact tamper would be as significant as a few kilos of pressure.
            It would be an interesting experiment to quantify my theory about tamping pressure vs puck compression. Ill see if I can steal the bathroom scales and take some measurements. If very little puck movement happens in the upper 50% of the pressure range it would suggest not a lot of compression is happening. It could be argued however that the compression that *is* happening is significant, as the ratio of air pocket size to coffee particle size get closer. Not to forget of course the effect of the gravitational constant, the prevailing atmospheric pressure at the time, the number of primary school teachers you had and the time it takes to boil an egg on a Sunday.... :

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            • #21
              Re: Basket case

              Hey, I take some offense at the back on topic remark.

              Can I remind you both that I started this topic because I was interested in knowing why the puck breaks - you both seem to agree to the reason in that regard and I appreciate the info. I am happy with my purchase, however it would also have been nice to have been informed of this when I placed the order.

              Your exchange is seems like 2 boys squirting up the wall - who can go the highest!


              Im going to bed - good night!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Basket case

                Sorry for any offense Dennis, but my back on topic remark wasnt directed to your post at all. When I started my reply, the last post was Robustas (http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1173864679/14#14) which was a continuation of the gutteral diversion shall we say. I wanted to bring discussion back onto what was being discussed before that diversion, which was in part a discussion on why your pucks were breaking and what factors could be causing that. MatthewG suggested tamp pressure and my comments addressed my views on that. It wasnt until checking back just now that I realised that replies 15 through 18 had occurred while composing my reply, and those had actually brought discussions back on topic.

                Again, my apologies for any offense taken but hopefully the intended context is clear.

                Greg

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                • #23
                  Re: Basket case

                  I think Dennis has had one too many shots before going to bed

                  Getting back to the compression of the coffee grounds during tamping..... I dont think the Force/Puck Height curve would look very different for different grind settings with all else being equal. I think the curve would just be displaced higher or lower on the Y Axis but the general shape of the curve would remain the same.

                  Anyway, for my money, I think too much emphasis is placed on having to use a nominal exact 13.5Kgs of tamping force for each and every shot. In my case for example, my tamps vary between a low of of about 10.5Kgs to a high of 12.5Kgs and I can tamp within this range day-in and day-out. To date I have not been able to notice any significant variability in the shot performance with tamps performed at the extremes of this range, so I tend to agree with Greg in that there is a law of diminishing returns at play here and once you have found a way to apply a tamping force that is somewhere near the "ideal" that is comfortable for you to replicate ad infinitum, then that is the greatest hurdle overcome. It is just left for you to control grind setting and dose size to manage the type of shots you are seeking to pour.

                  Mal.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Basket case

                    All my double pucks break in half! I cant see how they can stay solid actually. I have a "Grindenstein", which is quite small for those that havent seen one. When I knock out my puck, the PF is pretty much half/half over the knocking bar which breaks up my double pucks. Most of my singles manage to stay intact though. I wondered about this when I started using doubles all the time and just assumed that a larger puck has less inherent strength than a single. My shots are consistent and the puck is dry and has a good imprint of the shower screen and screw.

                    Does this mean I need to tamp harder/grind finer to make the puck stronger? My single shot pull times are around 30s ( I have never bothered to time it though) and I can achieve this regularly. My coffee is tasting fine though so I dont want to change anything too radically. Im using standard EM6910 baskets.

                    Probably gone off topic like others but thought Id see what people thought.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Basket case

                      Mmmmm, I know we all want to pick over the entrails of a dead chicken to ponder how it may have tasted....

                      But I think too much emphasis is being placed on a useless piece of spent coffee (puck) which has already served its purpose and satisfied its owner.

                      Would giving the basket a decent thwack over the knock-box bar and seeing one piece dislodge bring a smile to our face? And seeing it break into two send us into a spin?

                      Folks, were talking about dregs here, bound for the compost bin or rubbish. Who cares what shape theyre in when the worms have their turn.

                      Next somenones going to recommend a standard knocking pressure to ensure the puck stays intact.

                      --Robuso

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                      • #26
                        Re: Basket case

                        My double pucks hardly ever break using the bang bang. They used to break a little more often before getting a Pullman tamper. The singles dont often break, but more than the doubles probably owing to their shape and lack of thickness at the outer edges due to basket shape.

                        Cheers

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Basket case

                          Good morning all - yes, Mal, Im feeling a little chirpier and Greg, hope you can see where I was coming from.

                          This morning I got the giotto basket and gently placed the PT inside - a very nice fit.  So using the same coffee/grind/pressure and water in the reservoir, pulled a shot....

                          Magic, red ochre crema with colour ranges like those produced by a smoky sunset on the south western face of Uluru.

                          Then the moment of the knock...

                          Used my standard calculated knocking method: take aim, raise arm to 50degrees, downward force emanating in hitting the kncobar at a speed of 27 kilometres per hour.  And the result....

                          a single puck... must have been to do with the basket; life is good; the stars ar once again aligned, and all is good in the universe, so long as you stay under the bed covers!

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                          • #28
                            Re: Basket case

                            Good description, Dennis. I must take that pilgrimage to Uluru to see whether my own extractions measure up.

                            --RObusto

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                            • #29
                              Re: Basket case

                              We should perhaps clarify where the break in question is. I think most including Saambo are picturing the puck snapping in half through a vertical plane, as could happen with a Grindenstein with its thin bar. I *think* Dennis is talking about a horizontal fracture (as Ive noticed with my own LM basket), where half the puck comes out and the other half remains within the basket.

                              Irrespective of that, as Robusto says it doesnt necessarily matter; Ive not noticed this causing any problems with the LM shots compared to the Rancilio, its just a bit messier.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Basket case

                                yall
                                If a Proctologist makes diagnosis by inspecting all things "stool"
                                does this mean we CSers are Pucktologists

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