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  • espresso parts precision baskets

    Hi all, would love some help/input with this.

    Currently in the final stages of getting a little coffee cart at church up and running and bought two of these baskets from talkcoffee (the 15-18g sized ones). Have yet to try them out on the 2group machine we bought but have been playing around with them on my silvia and been a little unimpressed with the results coming from these guys when compared to my 18g VST.

    To my surprise, i'm getting much more channelling than with the VST, and the resulting puck seems to be missing the bottom rim where there are no holes in the basket (as compared to the VST which has holes all the way out to the edges of the bottom). Acidity seems to be similar to the VST but the shot just seems to lack a little in body and blonding much quicker.

    Am I doing something wrong?
    I'm thinking that rim around the base is changing the pressure across the puck or causing some under extraction at the base where the holes are missing

    Current dose: 18g, 45mls in 27secs
    PID temp: 95 (which is about 93-94 when it comes out the shower screen)
    Grinder: mazzer mini w doser
    routine: Grind into pf, distribute, light tamp, polish, heavy tamp, pull shot.

    would love some input =)

  • #2
    Hi Tim,

    Dose to a mound, collapse twice, fill if required so that you can brush off to full and level and then tamp. Plain and simple.

    I remember in the days of Dave Makin competing, he had the view that it was not wise to d!ck around with the puck. I see forceful polish frequently and this can promote chanelling as the puck is twisted.

    Honestly, if you're getting chanelling with a Precision basket, and not with a VST, it's a technique issue. VST gear wants perfect technique or they'll go you. Precision is far more forgiving.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post

      Precision is far more forgiving.
      110% Agreed.
      I almost trash my stock basket from Giotto V3
      when it goes with Blend P2, perfect cups one by one

      Comment


      • #4
        I have tried both the VST baskets and the Precision baskets.
        For me there is no comparison regarding ease in getting a good shot. The Precision basket wins hands-down. They are the best baskets that I have used.

        I sold my VSTs to a fellow-CSer.

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        • #5
          is anyone else getting the rim of grounds in the basket like the photo shown here?

          tried reducing my dose to 17 and 16gms, not much change. i did notice the indentation made by the bolt on my shower screen was a little too marked with 18 and 17gms when using the precision, 16 seemed to be sweet spot. unfortunately been limited by the fact that I don't really want to have 3-4 coffees at 7pm... :P

          chris, noted on the polishing, will try doing some shots without and report back. FWIW the polishing is only the weight of the tamper, but agreed on d!cking around with the puck. should be as plain and simple as possible (also, thanks for the excellent service on the delivery. didn't imagine I'd receive them within 24hrs of ordering all the way here in perth!)

          Click image for larger version

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          • #6
            No such problems for me. I dose 18g in my triple, and 15g in the double. The shower screen is quite low on the BZ99s though.

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            • #7
              No such problems with mine either ,I dose approx 19-20g in the double 22-23g in the triple.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by NakiChap View Post
                No such problems with mine either ,I dose approx 19-20g in the double 22-23g in the triple.
                Yep, that's very similar to my dosing regime with the EP in a Diadema (BFC) Reale, and it works very well for me. I have nothing against the VSTs, but I find SWMBO is more capable of making coffee for herself with the EPs. The photos in post 5 look almost like the grind is a touch too fine and leaving a fair bit oil on the basket (but I might be wrong).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                  Hi Tim,

                  Dose to a mound, collapse twice, fill if required so that you can brush off to full and level and then tamp. Plain and simple.

                  I remember in the days of Dave Makin competing, he had the view that it was not wise to d!ck around with the puck. I see forceful polish frequently and this can promote chanelling as the puck is twisted.

                  Honestly, if you're getting chanelling with a Precision basket, and not with a VST, it's a technique issue. VST gear wants perfect technique or they'll go you. Precision is far more forgiving.

                  I agree,

                  With the double I dose to a mound collapse once, with the triple I will collapse twice , simple and gives a correct dose every shot.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    as with other stock double baskets that accompany coffee machines, the TC baskets are much less technique fussy than the VSTs. Had to grind coarser for the same 20secs+ extraction time for 15g before blonding.
                    i can attest to leftover wet puck in my basket (like above) after a trip to the knockbin, but nothing i havent came across even with my VSTs. I tend to underdose with my baskets which could be the reason why my pucks are normally soaked through and messy when it comes to dumping.

                    taste test? the one proper shot i extracted with the TC basket is on par with my VST 15g basket. I had to increase dose to 16 because the basket was noticeably larger and i didn't want too big a gap between showerhead and puck.
                    Will keep churning out shots to see if consistency trumps my VST which I've pretty much nailed down for a decent shot everytime. I say decent only because VSTs are incredibly nitpicky with the age of beans. I personally feel the VST accentuates age variance rather evidently. If the TC baskets can 'prolong' the taste of my beans by concealing some of that age difference, I might actually geta set of my own

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                    • #11
                      Using a comparable amount of coffee, I find shots with the EP baskets to be weak and watery compared to VST shots. The EP baskets underextract a large ring of grounds around the perimeter since there are no holes (and no flow) there. So while EPs may make it easier to get a well-behaved bottomless portafilter shot, they make it harder to get one that's full-bodied and tasty.

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                      • #12
                        Why would you dose them the same way?

                        It's the same as if one was to suggest that using the VST baskets in the same way as EP, that they're prone to channelling and produce inferior shots.

                        Dose according design and intention. If it's VST, that means do as you're told...

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ASchecter View Post
                          Using a comparable amount of coffee, I find shots with the EP baskets to be weak and watery compared to VST shots. The EP baskets underextract a large ring of grounds around the perimeter since there are no holes (and no flow) there. So while EPs may make it easier to get a well-behaved bottomless portafilter shot, they make it harder to get one that's full-bodied and tasty.
                          Now, why would the large ring of coffee grounds around the perimeter underextract? Think about it for a second. In a VST basket the water would be forced through the coffee grounds and would then quickly pass through the holes below... whereas... with the EP basket, water would still be forced into the coffee grounds throughout the basket, but at the perimeter, where there aren't any holes, the water infused coffee would pool momentarily before eventually making its way through the holes in the centre of the basket. Since coffee extraction is largely a function of infusion over time, the coffee at the perimeter would be more extracted than with a VST basket. This would seem to suggest that your weak and watery shots are most likely due to poor technique, i.e. underdosing.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                            Why would you dose them the same way?
                            You are correct. When dosed similarly, the EP espressos are more watery, but when updosed 10-20% to equalize TDS, the EPs make decent espresso. Quite a few people (Perger, Kaminsky, Rao, etc) say that the VST espresso will be more revealing of subtle flavors than the EP. This seems to be true in my experience, but I honestly haven't done enough direct comparisons to be sure.

                            The "decent" updosed EP espresso is unfortunately achieved by extracting 10-20% less out of each coffee dose. I think this approach was OK 10 or 20 years ago when beans used for espresso were often some of the cheapest beans available. But nowadays progressive shops are making espresso from some of the very finest beans in the world, and the supply of these beans gets tighter and tighter.

                            I realize that very few people agree with my obsession about this, but I simply don't feel good about wasting 10-20% of by my beans in the compost bin just so my shot prep is a little easier. To each his/her own; I like the VST approach.

                            Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
                            Now, why would the large ring of coffee grounds around the perimeter underextract? Think about it for a second. In a VST basket the water would be forced through the coffee grounds and would then quickly pass through the holes below... whereas... with the EP basket, water would still be forced into the coffee grounds throughout the basket, but at the perimeter, where there aren't any holes, the water infused coffee would pool momentarily before eventually making its way through the holes in the centre of the basket. Since coffee extraction is largely a function of infusion over time, the coffee at the perimeter would be more extracted than with a VST basket.
                            This is not the case. Although a longer "residence time" of water in the coffee puck will increase extraction slightly, the amount of water passing through the grounds is a much stronger controlling factor. The grounds around the perimeter of an EP see a lot less water pass through and remain poorly extracted compared to the perimeter grounds in a VST.

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                            • #15
                              Yes- I'd agree that for extremely lightly roasted, near Turkish grind small doses, anything which can be done to maximise extraction is a bonus.

                              Given this is a discussion about EP baskets, might I point out that we have already had your observations above in the VST discussion thread. Perhaps you might repeat them there should you choose.

                              I'd rather "waste" a couple of grams of coffee than drink some of the stuff which has been produced with VST- which wastes the entire dose.
                              Last edited by TC; 10 August 2014, 07:41 AM.

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