Originally posted by Sleeprequired
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Help with VST 15g, ECM Synch & Niche Zero - naked extractions
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I think experimenting can be fun and espresso is a century old, ideas come and go on what is right and wrong. In the end you get to do what works for you and that can get complicated as there is an interplay between your equipment, skills and goals as well as your own taste.
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what would be good is to work out why I’m not getting really good naked pulls #grrrrOriginally posted by wattgn View PostI think experimenting can be fun and espresso is a century old, ideas come and go on what is right and wrong. In the end you get to do what works for you and that can get complicated as there is an interplay between your equipment, skills and goals as well as your own taste.
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no. both answers are not right. shot time starts from when the pump engages and starts dispersing water over the puck. the drips can emerge from the bottom at any time due to a host of factors that involve grind size, distribution, tamping pressure, channelling, grounds temperature, portafilter temperature, water temperature, and probably a bunch more that no-one has considered. this is not a reliable way to keep track of your shots!Originally posted by wattgn View PostYup. Nope.
Both right answers as is usual with coffee.
I've had lots of people including baristas tell me from first drip but not everyone agrees.
coffee has changed a lot over the last few years and there are still a bunch of career dyed-in-the-wool baristas who stick by their old-school methods - in my experience, these are the suburb cafes with Linea Classics that buy dark-roasted coffee and cut their shots short because they taste too bitter otherwise.
yeah you go by their recommended weights; that's why it's printed on the side. that's what the basket is designed for - an optimal bed depth that is resistant enough to channelling yet has enough headspace to swell upwards without compromising its tamped shape against the shower screen (which encourages channelling).It is like with competition baskets that is what they are for and cafes. I still use mine sometimes.
Then if you use a competition basket do you go by their recommended weights?...or dose like I do to the top and smooth with finger as this involves no weighing and is quick and easy...and works?
yeah agreed that underdosing is hard and overdosing is bad for the reasons above. both will suffer from channelling, though if you are a wizard at distribution, the underdose has a better chance of extracting properly.One thing for sure the smaller the weights in the basket, the better your technique has to be and the more issues you may get. A lot of baristas overload competition baskets too and a lot of other baristas disagree with that.
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Judging the amount of coffee in the basket by volume reminds me of the old trick question: what weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers.
The answer is obvious... But the volume of feathers is huge compared to the lead.
And so it is with ground coffee...a given weight will produce different volumes in the basket, influenced by the origin, roast profile, age post roast, humidity and what mood the grinder is in.
Don't trust your eye...trust your scales.
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Have a look here with some further discussion here. The puck does not swell/move up into the screen until after the shot has finished.Originally posted by woodhouse View Postyeah you go by their recommended weights; that's why it's printed on the side. that's what the basket is designed for - an optimal bed depth that is resistant enough to channelling yet has enough headspace to swell upwards without compromising its tamped shape against the shower screen (which encourages channelling.
Java "Killing another myth" phileToys! I must have new toys!!!
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i stand corrected.
in that case, the only real danger of overdosing is deforming the dry puck against the shower screen. though given that VST adjusts the hole diameters of their baskets according to the rated dose, I could imagine you would run into slower flows (undermining the quick-flow advantage of the VSTs) if you updosed more than recommended, but not enough to hit the shower screen.
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Well volumetric dosing works just fine. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with scales and weighing it either but if you get good tasting reproducible shots then it is not an issue.Originally posted by robusto View PostJudging the amount of coffee in the basket by volume reminds me of the old trick question: what weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers.
The answer is obvious... But the volume of feathers is huge compared to the lead.
And so it is with ground coffee...a given weight will produce different volumes in the basket, influenced by the origin, roast profile, age post roast, humidity and what mood the grinder is in.
Don't trust your eye...trust your scales.
Weighing give you more options for sure as you don't have to fill the basket.
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I've often wondered about the suction on the puck or at least on the area above it, created by the 3-way valve opening to release pressure.
The water expelled through the stem of the group is always clean. No sign of dark coffee coloured water.
And the solenoid valves are always spotlessly bright.
Now you would think that all that pressure on the puck during brewing would result in at least some brew water being suck down when the valve opens.
Yet...no sign of it.
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I think most of the time the puck is not suck...Originally posted by robusto View PostI've often wondered about the suction on the puck or at least on the area above it, created by the 3-way valve opening to release pressure.
The water expelled through the stem of the group is always clean. No sign of dark coffee coloured water.
And the solenoid valves are always spotlessly bright.
Now you would think that all that pressure on the puck during brewing would result in at least some brew water being suck down when the valve opens.
Yet...no sign of it.
It stays in place my guess but with maybe very low dosing it might not. I have seen times when it has detached and made a mess sticking to the screen.
I have also seen times when the basket is obviously overloaded and it is obvious when it is overloaded. If I dose volumetrically it compacts so that the ring in the basket is exposed so there is quite a bit of headspace. This incidentally is a practice both endorsed and condemned by World champ baristas. It goes to show there is no real right way to go.
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First crack or nothing
- Nov 13
- 3440
- Sydney (West)
- Filter or long black: clean with crisp acidity
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Yes a few. The dead spots on the bottom of the basket during the pour tell us your distribution could be improved. From the photo of the tamper in and out of the basket your tamp is not quite level (looking down from above like a clock with the portafilter handle at 6 the tamper is tilted toward the 2). Instead of leveling with your finger I would advise using the Barista Hustle palm tapping method, takes some practice but gets good results (I think noonar was referring to this). Most of all keep practicing and keep looking to improve. I think you need to stir the grounds more in the cup with your bamboo skewer, you want them light and fluffy before you tip them in. I found inverting the cup caused more dead spots than tapping the side of the cup to tip the grounds into the basket, then side tapping to distribute.Originally posted by Sleeprequired View PostSo are there any clues from those photos and that video that will help me fix my shots?
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Or it ends up in the grouphead above the screen. Depending on how close to the screen the top of the puck is there may be very little brown water there to get sucked up. Or your system releases the pressure slightly slower. Or probably any number of other reasons. The 2nd link in my previous post has a discussion about some of the factors and effects of various pressure relief processes on the puck, which would also apply to the liquid on top of the puck, that might also help answer your question.
Consider yourself lucky that your machine as you use it doesn't have coffee reaching the 3-way valve as many (Perhaps even most?) do. Fewer problems for you.
Java "Backflush regularly" phileToys! I must have new toys!!!
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yeah the grinds are actually most ‘fluffy’ before doing WDT inside the container. I’ve tried tipping the grinds in and doing WDT in the PF too. It sounds like I could benefit from a dosing ring and do the WDT inside the basket better too.Originally posted by level3ninja View PostYes a few. The dead spots on the bottom of the basket during the pour tell us your distribution could be improved. From the photo of the tamper in and out of the basket your tamp is not quite level (looking down from above like a clock with the portafilter handle at 6 the tamper is tilted toward the 2). Instead of leveling with your finger I would advise using the Barista Hustle palm tapping method, takes some practice but gets good results (I think noonar was referring to this). Most of all keep practicing and keep looking to improve. I think you need to stir the grounds more in the cup with your bamboo skewer, you want them light and fluffy before you tip them in. I found inverting the cup caused more dead spots than tapping the side of the cup to tip the grounds into the basket, then side tapping to distribute.
also sounds like the leveller will be a really helpful tool.
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With the risk of making things more confusing for the op. In terms of shot times/recipes I think a few of the comments are off the mark.
If you want to hit a roaster recipe in terms of time (and weight in/weight out) if you count the pre-infusion which is likely 8 seconds, you will need to remove it at the end. So if you count from flipping lever and have it on for 30 seconds, then minus the 8 second pre-infusion you are only running under full pressure for 22 seconds. Which means you are unlikely to get a similar shot to the roasters tasting notes and recipe. So either count pre-infusion to end of shot and then remove pre-infusion time at the end or count from when the pump ramps to full pressure up to the end of the shot.
Since only some domestic machines have pre-infusion and a bunch of commercial machines don't have pre-infusion these recipes are actually referring to time under full pump pressure. If you think about it in an extreme example say you configure you pre-infusion to be 20 seconds, you run a total of 30 seconds, then you have 10 seconds under full pressure you prob end up with 6-7 grams of coffee out. This is not a proper coffee.
According to Clive Coffee pre-infusion is;
Pre-infusion refers to the process of gently soaking the puck of ground coffee in your portafilter before applying the full desired brewing pressure. The goal is to ensure that water evenly penetrates the grounds to ensure that the entire bed has the same amount of water flowing through it once extraction begins.
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