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Help with VST 15g, ECM Synch & Niche Zero - naked extractions

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  • #31
    Originally posted by level3ninja View Post
    Yes a few. The dead spots on the bottom of the basket during the pour tell us your distribution could be improved. From the photo of the tamper in and out of the basket your tamp is not quite level (looking down from above like a clock with the portafilter handle at 6 the tamper is tilted toward the 2). Instead of leveling with your finger I would advise using the Barista Hustle palm tapping method, takes some practice but gets good results (I think noonar was referring to this). Most of all keep practicing and keep looking to improve. I think you need to stir the grounds more in the cup with your bamboo skewer, you want them light and fluffy before you tip them in. I found inverting the cup caused more dead spots than tapping the side of the cup to tip the grounds into the basket, then side tapping to distribute.
    Thanks level3ninja. I’ve responded to this again as I believe you’ve put me on the right path. For 2 consecutive coffees I’ve dosed a bit less but still 15.0-15.3 grams, but really concentrated on the distribution.

    so I’m WDT’ing in the niche container, the pouring in the grinds and WDT/levelling as I go. I’m certain the extractions are better, and now the coffee is consistently nice.

    room for improvement? Hell yes! I won’t be satisfied until I get a perfect aesthetic shot to see what & if it makes a flavour improvement.

    for now though I’m on the up and up. I tried to get a video this time around but missed the record button. Oh well, there’s always the next coffee.

    I’m now convinced a dosing funnel and WDT in the basket will be required before tamping so I’m off to get a dosing ring so I can WDT in the basket and simplify my workflow.

    I did manage to get a shot of the extracted coffee this morning.
    Click image for larger version

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    • #32
      That's my take on it too Roosterben...
      Seems logical to me and is what I've used for 15+ years.

      Mal.

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      • #33
        I think you would be better off using the Niche dosing tin and an OCD style distribution tool. Although a naked portafilter with a dosing ring could work, have seen a few people using this setup, haven't tried it my self.

        Nice looking shot of coffee there!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by roosterben View Post
          With the risk of making things more confusing for the op. In terms of shot times/recipes I think a few of the comments are off the mark.

          If you want to hit a roaster recipe in terms of time (and weight in/weight out) if you count the pre-infusion which is likely 8 seconds, you will need to remove it at the end. So if you count from flipping lever and have it on for 30 seconds, then minus the 8 second pre-infusion you are only running under full pressure for 22 seconds. Which means you are unlikely to get a similar shot to the roasters tasting notes and recipe. So either count pre-infusion to end of shot and then remove pre-infusion time at the end or count from when the pump ramps to full pressure up to the end of the shot.

          Since only some domestic machines have pre-infusion and a bunch of commercial machines don't have pre-infusion these recipes are actually referring to time under full pump pressure. If you think about it in an extreme example say you configure you pre-infusion to be 20 seconds, you run a total of 30 seconds, then you have 10 seconds under full pressure you prob end up with 6-7 grams of coffee out. This is not a proper coffee.

          According to Clive Coffee pre-infusion is;

          Pre-infusion refers to the process of gently soaking the puck of ground coffee in your portafilter before applying the full desired brewing pressure. The goal is to ensure that water evenly penetrates the grounds to ensure that the entire bed has the same amount of water flowing through it once extraction begins.
          so the question is then, the ECM sycnhronika... What is the pre-infusion time? Mine is not plumbed. Not sure if that makes a difference or not...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sleeprequired View Post
            so the question is then, the ECM sycnhronika... What is the pre-infusion time? Mine is not plumbed. Not sure if that makes a difference or not...
            The pump takes several seconds to achieve maximum pressure and you can normally hear that in the noise of the pump as it changes in pitch. I have a plumbed in rotary but the mechanics are the same.

            Pre-infusion is confusing as it is/was/might be a feature of some E61 groups and the mechanics are controlled inside the head. I read a few articles on it and all I can say is that there is a pressurising period of time where full pressure is being achieved, it doesn't happen instantly. You could say that period doesn't count as the shot isn't experiencing full pressure. Saying it would be six seconds is probably a bit long and ten seconds definitely is.

            I get close to 'first drip' a few seconds after full pressure, maybe six seconds is ideal.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by roosterben View Post
              I think you would be better off using the Niche dosing tin and an OCD style distribution tool. Although a naked portafilter with a dosing ring could work, have seen a few people using this setup, haven't tried it my self.

              Nice looking shot of coffee there!
              yes ive got 'the jack' leveller on order - The Jack – Leveler – Asso Coffee

              but still think maybe the best place to WDT is in the PF right before levelling/tamping?

              There is also the fact that the dosing funnel I like is awesome from chris @ talk coffee
              Last edited by Javaphile; 30 October 2019, 02:20 PM. Reason: Commercial link removed

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sleeprequired View Post
                so the question is then, the ECM sycnhronika... What is the pre-infusion time? Mine is not plumbed. Not sure if that makes a difference or not...
                Two ways I use to measure pre-infusion

                1. time from when I pull the lever until the pressure gauge starts to rise circa... 6 sec
                2. time from when I pull the lever to first signs of coffee flow in the bottom of the basket circa... 8 sec

                as I understand it pre-infusion is done without pressure ie it wets the coffee in the basket but doesn't force water through it.

                Plumbed or not would make no difference

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                • #38
                  I think the original question was shot times and when you start timing the shot. I think it is quite right to start timing when it is at 'full pressure'. My Wega doesn't have a pressure gauge for the group but you can tell from the sound when it is up to pressure. The Pre-Infusion may or may not be part of that initial process depending on your machine. Six seconds to first drip is therefore about right (for my machine) but after that it is quite right that the time should be added to the shot time. I can with my setup get shots that take 20 - 30 seconds or longer to first drip. Obviously that isn't the objective but it can happen when experimenting with a new basket or bean.

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                  • #39
                    Sooooo this will definely be my last coffee for the day lol. Here's the video. I know I need a stand or something, holding the phone is definiely not ideal and apologies in advance for taking the phone away from the extraction as well. I needed to check timing and moved. oops.

                    So total shot time was 40 seconds on the PID but didn't get first drip until 11s. Visually this was my best extraction yet with tiger striping in the flow and the cup. Forgot to get a shot of that too, but anyway, videos are fun so here goes..

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                    • #40
                      I think that the grind is a bit fine. 11 seconds to first drip and a total time of 40 seconds is definitely out of the recommended zone and the volume looks like ristretto even for that time although it is hard to tell from the video.

                      What did it taste like?

                      I went from my standard Wega double basket to my IMS B70 2T H24.5 basket, both hold about 18 grams (I just checked the weight this morning on the IMS and it is less than I thought. I dose volumetrically.

                      I just moved the setting significantly finer to start with and now it is back to the setting for the standard Wega basket!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by wattgn View Post
                        I think that the grind is a bit fine. 11 seconds to first drip and a total time of 40 seconds is definitely out of the recommended zone and the volume looks like ristretto even for that time although it is hard to tell from the video.

                        What did it taste like?

                        I went from my standard Wega double basket to my IMS B70 2T H24.5 basket, both hold about 18 grams (I just checked the weight this morning on the IMS and it is less than I thought. I dose volumetrically.

                        I just moved the setting significantly finer to start with and now it is back to the setting for the standard Wega basket!
                        yeah the grind setting is the same as before so either the beans are drying out or I tamped it too hard. We will lean toward user error on this one, i'm happy to wear the blame The extraction was 27g from 15g which is where i like this coffee for some reason.

                        as far as taste goes i did feel like it was a tad overextracted in terms of bitterness, but there were also some really nice flavours in there. I would think somewhere between the first video and this one should be good to go.

                        finicky business this.... looked the goods though ...

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sleeprequired View Post
                          yeah the grind setting is the same as before so either the beans are drying out or I tamped it too hard. We will lean toward user error on this one, i'm happy to wear the blame

                          as far as taste goes i did feel like it was a tad overextracted in terms of bitterness, but there were also some really nice flavours in there. I would think somewhere between the first video and this one should be good to go.

                          finicky business this.... looked the goods though ...
                          I think starting with a 15g VST basket is a challenge. A few people I know won't even use those smaller baskets as they are too tricky. I know some people who persevere getting the perfect extraction out of a single basket.... The singles baskets mostly get put in storage.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by wattgn View Post
                            I think starting with a 15g VST basket is a challenge. A few people I know won't even use those smaller baskets as they are too tricky. I know some people who persevere getting the perfect extraction out of a single basket.... The singles baskets mostly get put in storage.
                            I don't mind the single basket. I have a Funnel and tamper specifically for it and i'm able to WDT in basket. Those shots seem to come out ok visually but they do seem a bit bitter and blonde QUICKLY

                            I could post a video of that!!??

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                            • #44
                              It is a nice looking shot but agree with wattgn bit too long at 40 seconds, if I read correctly your pre-infusion was 6 seconds so that mean your shot time under full pressure is 34 seconds. If you shoot for the 27 grams out in say 33 seconds total (6 sec pre infusion and 27 seconds full pump pressure) I reckon it will be tastier and reduce the blonding. This can depend on the beans, but I think light roasts can be handle longer shot times and ristretto type yields out a bit better. But if you are using a medium/dark roast you are probably over extracting a bit. Just go a tad coarser on grinder and shorten the shot time.

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                              • #45
                                the main thing to look for is astringency. keep pushing it until you start feeling that drying sensation between your tongue and the roof of your mouth - like when you eat raw spinach or grapes. If you push a roasty-tasting (but not astringent) shot a bit harder, you may end up with more sweetness which balances it out. happened to me this week.

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