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Help with VST 15g, ECM Synch & Niche Zero - naked extractions

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  • Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    But if the caffeine is extracted early, then wouldn't that a relatively high proportion of caffeine is 'in the cup' (rather than in the puck or in the drip tray)? Not quite following your logic here. What is extracted goes into the cup, what is not extracted does not.
    You are saying "the caffeine" implying ALL the caffeine. Like any other compounds in the coffee, it requires a quantity of water to dissolve it.

    The restricted amount of water in a ristretto is not going to dissolve all the caffeine. Just a part of it, compared to leaving the shot run longer (espresso) or longer still (watery espresso) where more and more water is dissolving out more and more caffeine.

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    • Originally posted by robusto View Post
      You are saying "the caffeine" implying ALL the caffeine. Like any other compounds in the coffee, it requires a quantity of water to dissolve it.

      The restricted amount of water in a ristretto is not going to dissolve all the caffeine. Just a part of it, compared to leaving the shot run longer (espresso) or longer still (watery espresso) where more and more water is dissolving out more and more caffeine.
      No, I'm not meaning to imply anything about 'all' the caffeine. I'm just trying to understand your point. If "caffeine being more water soluble is extracted early" then surely the shorter (longer) you let the shot run, the higher (lower) the proportion of caffeine in the resulting shot? Obviously if you cut the shot after 8 seconds, you'll have a very small drink, containing fewer grams of caffeine than if you let the shot run for a minute. That much is almost self-evident. But if the assertion about caffeine being extracted early is correct then a 20g (out) extraction is going to have a higher proportion of caffeine than a 30g extraction (all else held equal).

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      • Barry...my "point" was about the intensity of a ristretto, with caffeine content being one part of that. I should have said the amount of caffeine in a ristretto is less than the amount of caffeine in an espresso or longer shot.

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        • What I’d really like to see in this thread is videos and details of naked extractions. Basically, I want coffee porn.

          I am a simple man.

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          • Originally posted by robusto View Post
            Barry...my "point" was about the intensity of a ristretto, with caffeine content being one part of that. I should have said the amount of caffeine in a ristretto is less than the amount of caffeine in an espresso or longer shot.

            No worries, was just trying work that out. Have a good one.

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            • ... why not just split the shot into different glasses in (say) 7 second spacing and workout what each part of the shot actually tastes like? Not my idea, learnt it at a three week intensive in 1979.

              Getting the facts would save a lot of debate. Also, Illy's "the science of espresso" states in black and white that the caffeine dissolves very early in the shot. What most people think as bitter is usually not the caffeine at all, it is some of the other four or five thousand compounds rearing their bitter heads later in the shot.

              TampIt

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              • SR - Just want to pick up on your comment re pre-infusion. I have the Technika V Profi PID, HX vs DB, but otherwise very similar to your Synchronica in function. The Technika MUST be plumbed in to use the Pre-Infusion function and, I believe, the same applies to your machine. I recently plumbed in from a nearby fridge water supply, and installed a Pressure Reducing valve which is set to 1.5 Bar and a Quest water filter for scale etc. It has been a huge relief getting the machine plumbed in. After using a fully automatic DeLonghi Primadonna Elite, I was finding I was going through HEAPS more water so was constantly refilling. I now also have access to Pre-Infusion [PI].

                Thanks to the wonderful contributors here, I found I was over extracting by counting the PI time + Extraction time. Today I have my best double espresso ever from the current Allpress House Blend. 10 sec PI, 22 sec extract and 33gm out from 18gm at 9 Bar and approx 95.5 starting temp. I aim for 8s PI + 20 Ext = 28 sec total extract for 30gm yield

                The other thing I noted is that with the Pre-Infusion there is no longer a delay of, say, 6 seconds until the first drip starts to appear. Also, have had to dial in a much finer grind!! I'm excited at the improved taste using PI and hope you, SR, are able to find a way to achieve this. I'm more than happy to empty the drip tray as the sink is in the scullery just opposite the machine.

                Btw, my wife has single shot flat whites, and Supplier, Hamilton, NZ supplied the 4 hole steam tip which RADICALLY improved frothing the milk over the supplied 2 hole. Your Synchronica is probably so much more powerful at steaming that this may or may not be an issue.

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                • This sounds interesting. So my current timing is between say 32s and 36s depending on first drip overall. What’s your overall extraction time pre and post plumbing?

                  you said you aim for 28s shot time but your best was 32, am I reason that right?

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                  • Yep, so my aim is for 28 secs (8 pre infusion and 20 extract). I had previously had mixed advice for preinfusion some arguing 3 seconds and others 10 seconds. I was then adding the 30 second extract. Thanks to TampIt et al I now see that about 28 sec is the best timing for 18gm with 30mg yield but that this includes preinfusion and that that is best at about 8 secs. Sorry for the confusion but the 32 seconds is because I am still dialing in to meet those specs and haven't arrived yet. My point was that, despite my timings not quite hitting the mark, the taste was so much improved.

                    I'm in the camp that the timing starts from when the lever is pulled and water hits the coffee not from the first drip appearing. Hence using the Brewista scales' timer for Pre-infusion and the machine's PID for the extract timing

                    Triple excitement today with my first VST basket arriving - 18gm ridgeless (don't know where to access the 7mg??), and Coffee Sensor, Taylor thermometer. (& getting a glimpse of the value of preinfusion).

                    Now I will be able to check how close the group head temperature is to the chart given in the manual. It was very disappointing to find that my great Fluke 116 thermocouple was at least 4.5 degrees C out. Grrrrr.

                    The timing didn't change pre and post plumbing. It is the preinfusion, available only when plumbed in, that altered the timing (shortened it) and required the grind to be finer.

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                    • Originally posted by quester View Post
                      Yep, so my aim is for 28 secs (8 pre infusion and 20 extract). I had previously had mixed advice for preinfusion some arguing 3 seconds and others 10 seconds. I was then adding the 30 second extract. Thanks to TampIt et al I now see that about 28 sec is the best timing for 18gm with 30mg yield but that this includes preinfusion and that that is best at about 8 secs. Sorry for the confusion but the 32 seconds is because I am still dialing in to meet those specs and haven't arrived yet. My point was that, despite my timings not quite hitting the mark, the taste was so much improved.

                      I'm in the camp that the timing starts from when the lever is pulled and water hits the coffee not from the first drip appearing. Hence using the Brewista scales' timer for Pre-infusion and the machine's PID for the extract timing

                      Triple excitement today with my first VST basket arriving - 18gm ridgeless (don't know where to access the 7mg??), and Coffee Sensor, Taylor thermometer. (& getting a glimpse of the value of preinfusion).

                      Now I will be able to check how close the group head temperature is to the chart given in the manual. It was very disappointing to find that my great Fluke 116 thermocouple was at least 4.5 degrees C out. Grrrrr.

                      The timing didn't change pre and post plumbing. It is the preinfusion, available only when plumbed in, that altered the timing (shortened it) and required the grind to be finer.
                      haha you’ll be in for a challenge when those VST’s arrive. Very happy to have you post up here but I’d love some VIDEOS from other members. Nothing like the information AND the video to see and share...

                      so, this morning I aimed at 30s total time given it takes the pump 3s to get up to pressure. I’m putting 15.4g into a 15g VST basket and aiming for around 20-22g out in this time. So my brew ratio is 1.3-1.4. I primarily have lattes however I may start targeting the 1:2 so I can have a sip before adding milk

                      I do find at this ‘slightly’ faster setting that the bitterness is a bit reduced but maybe some of the personality with it? I feel like the coffee I have responds better to being pushed a bit harder - it’s the organic @ origin coffeesnobs bean at the moment.

                      if any of you gurus out there have info on the ideal brew ratio / formula for that bean I’d love to know

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                      • Ok so I thought I’d post up a couple of pics

                        15g in > 22g out in 28s total time

                        The dark part is a shadow

                        Click image for larger version

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                        and the (little bit sad) latte art

                        Click image for larger version

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