Re: PID
Yep, great explanations! Thanks guys!
-Sammy
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Re: PID
All other things equal, having a heat sink is better than not having a heat sink. But the current demands for your 220V Silvia will be very low - the heater should draw less than 5A.Originally posted by Sammy link=1189748485/0#13 date=1192597318How "big" should the heat sink be Mark? and whereabouts did you mount it? Ive read quite a few write-ups of peoples PIDing and im not sure if many of them put a heat sink in.
I have measured Crydom SSR baseplate temperatures for 110V Silvias (which draw 8A) and found that the SSR temperature stays well below the manufacturers threshold for a 10A load. And this was with the SSR exposed to air with no heat sinking of any kind.
Because it is a trivial matter to smear a little heat sink compound on the frame of the Silvia before fastening the SSR, go ahead and do it. But I am convinced this step has very little benefit for this specific application (especially for a 220V machine that draws even less current than the 110V model).
While the machine is idling, the duty cycle of the SSR is going to be around 8%, further reducing the need for heat sinking.
Please be sure and incorporate the following elements in your plan:
- use a good grade of stranded hookup wire, with a min. temp rating of 105C
- try and find wire that is rated for use in appliances (usually designated as AWM)
- use a safety cover over the high voltage terminals of the SSR, especially if mounted below the group
- run a ground wire to your enclosure if it is made of metal
Above all, be safe and have fun with it.
Jim
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Re: PID
Gday again Sammy,Originally posted by Sammy link=1189748485/0#13 date=1192597318How "big" should the heat sink be Mark? and whereabouts did you mount it? Ive read quite a few write-ups of peoples PIDing and im not sure if many of them put a heat sink in.
It really depends on the machine I guess and whether you have easy access to a section of the metal frame or panelling of the machine on which to mount the SSR so that this forms the Heat-Sink. Providing you use an SSR rated between 25-40 Amps continuous load, mounting it on the frame or panelling would be quite sufficient. Just need to make sure you use a thermal conductive compound of the type used for computer CPU HSFs, etc and scrape off any paint should there be any, to ensure a nice efficient thermal coupling between the SSR and the frame. This is all Ive ever done with SSRs used for all sorts of reasons in short-term industrial applications and never had a failure.
All the best,
Mal.
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Re: PID
Thanks for that info guys.
Yeah, i do agree that the kits are quicker, easier etc, but they are quite a bit more expensive and i think im up for a bit of fun with the machine (and hopefully save some $) so i think i prefer the DIY option. Ive done alot of searching and there is a wealth of info on the web about it so i reckon its do-able.
How "big" should the heat sink be Mark? and whereabouts did you mount it? Ive read quite a few write-ups of peoples PIDing and im not sure if many of them put a heat sink in.
I was thinking about the warranty thing though and the two worst scenarios are:
1) wait until warranty has expired, do PID, break machine, have no warranty (because its expired)
2) dont wait until warranty has expired, do PID, break machine, have no warranty (because its voided)
Do Silvias often have something wrong with them thats fixed within the warranty period?
Thanks for the help!
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Re: PID
Hi Sammy,
I recently bought an entire PID set-up from le-bay-o-evil at less that AUD$100. So it is possible. Sourcing the parts from retailers will cost considerably more. Most PID controllers sell above the AUD$200 mark.
If you pick up one via remote means be sure you get one that is suitable for the job. It must have an output suitable for driving an SSR. Many PIDs have relay outputs which arent suitable for the job (unless you modify it yourself). That means getting the exact part number and finding out exactly what options are enabled. Not too hard if you know what youre doing, but a bit more daunting if you dont. So basically a bit of patience and some research and you should be capable of doing this yourself.
You will need three parts: A PID controller, a solid-state relay (SSR) and a thermocouple. You can get a decent K-type thermocouple from DSE for about $10 (bead type thermocouple). SSRs usually cost anywhere from $20-$50 depending on the rating. Generally a high rated (say 40 A) SSR is recommended. It will need to be mounted to a heat sink in order to keep it running.
Other than the main three components, there will be connecting wires and a project box and mounting hardware... In short its a mini-project. Not too difficult though.
BTW, the end result is well worth the mod. However, voiding warranty is definitely an issue here.
Cheers,
Mark.
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Re: PID
Gday Sammy,Originally posted by Sammy link=1189748485/0#9 date=1192208481My bro, sis and dad are elec&mech engineers/sparky do you reckon theyll have enough collective knowledge? (I was guessing so, but ive never actually done anything like this). There seems to be alot of instructions and wiring diagrams etc on the net.
I come from an electrical engineering background too so I dont think your siblings would find it be a "huge" challenge. I designed and installed a PID Controller system from scratch on a previous espresso machine I owned made from components bought from various suppliers of such things and then established my own PID parameters. Basically I did all this "the hard way" because I enjoy the occasional small challenge
. Theres tons of info on the Net regarding Silvias and PID so it would be easy enough to source info on the practical aspects of the job.
As 2mcm said above though, Id wait until the warranty has expired before committing to this upgrade, if anything happens during the install that breaks something youll basically be up that proverbial creek without a paddle. In the mean time, you could do a bit of a Google search for info on "Temperature Surfing" your Silvia and learn how to optimise the brewing temperature this way.
All the best,
Mal.
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Re: PID
Hi Sammy
i got the kit from site sponser pid kits, its very easy to install anyone can do its really simple. The kit does cost more if compare to buying the parts separately. But its going to save you a lot of headache. In this world nothing is free and time is money. So you can save some $$$ but its gonna cost you heaps of time doing research, get the parts and program the PID etc... My opinion is that pay a bit more for the kit and enjoy better coffee sooner. "Life is too short, save the headache and time for something else, plus the USD is really low against the AUD its a great time to buy. Lots of value!
Cheers
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Re: PID
Hi and thanks for the help!
Yeah, maybe i should wait until the warranty runs out, but then again they seem to be built like tanks.
Cafe zeenuts, did you install the PID yourself and source the parts yourself? I think the kits look great but from looking into the cost of the parts compared to the price of the kits are a bit on the expensive side (though i guess youre paying for the well thought-out method/instructions). My bro, sis and dad are elec&mech engineers/sparky do you reckon theyll have enough collective knowledge? (I was guessing so, but ive never actually done anything like this). There seems to be alot of instructions and wiring diagrams etc on the net.
I think its something ill look at for a few months and then if i feel confident enough that ive got enought info, ill have a go during the summer holidays.
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Re: PID
Hi Sammy,Originally posted by Sammy link=1189748485/0#6 date=1191685994Hi,
Im very new to all this (have a Silvia and Rocky doserless <1mth old) and am thinking of PIDing my silvia. Has anyone here done it themselves without a pri-made kit? Where do I start, what shops sell the PID gear (i live in Sydney). Is it much cheaper to do it yourself compared to the kits? Ta!
Keep in mind that few sellers will honour your warranty once you have modified your machine.
2mcm
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Re: PID
I just recently install a pid kit on to my silvia it works great and its easy to install. My tip is that unless you are very keen and know what you doing and have time i would just paid more for a kit that is pretty much plug and play.
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Re: PID
Hi,
Im very new to all this (have a Silvia and Rocky doserless <1mth old) and am thinking of PIDing my silvia. Has anyone here done it themselves without a pri-made kit? Where do I start, what shops sell the PID gear (i live in Sydney). Is it much cheaper to do it yourself compared to the kits? Ta!
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Re: PID
A proportional-integral-derivative controller (PID controller) is a generic control loop feedback mechanism widely used in industrial control systems. ...
plagerised from google.
And might I add, a very useful and worthwhile mod for any reasonably built espresso machine, not only does it give precise boiler temperature control but more importantly tells you exactly where its at, therefore no more guess work for pulling the perfect shot or steam temperature for ideal micro foam. I just love it.... works for me.
Ray.... 8-)
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Re: PID
Hi
This will help me as it saves me from explaining it :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
Mike
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Re: PID
Gday tojo1,
Theres lots of info to be found on the Net about using PID Controllers for espresso machine Boiler Management but a really good explanation for new-starters can be found here..... Almost a "walk-through" of PID Control and Espresso....
Cheers Mate,
Mal.
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