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  • Upgrade time?

    Hi guys,

    Ive dilly dallied around on this for quite a while and I think its time to make a decision so I need a bit of advice. Wed all like a $3k machine but practically its out of reach of most of us. Ive always liked the thought of a HX machine, however the majority of the time Im only making two milk-based drinks at a time; when I make more than that a HX would be handy but I reckon thatd be about a 1 in 50 occurrence. So really a single boiler is <grits teeth> adequate for me at the moment.

    Im generally happy with the steam performance of my Silvia. Whats really starting to annoy me is the shot consistency, which I think may be temperature-related; its good, but I find I dont always get the same results from two consecutive shots. Channelling isnt too much of an issue, my dose technique is pretty good I think and the tamper tends to be the right size . I was doing a lot of testing last night on our new blends and was frustrated that when the heating light was off and when I purged the head, sometimes it would come out as water, and other times it would be flashing into steam, which points to a degree of temperature variation in the boiler. I guess this is the reason people temperature-surf. So I guess what Im looking for is at least a Silvia, but more temperature stable. A better group would be better too if it can be justified. Finally, for reasons which Ive been unable to change, any replacement if thats the best option should be a neat looking machine, such as the Silvia or low-end Expobars, and not like the Giotto, VBM Domobar or any other machine with the E61 exposed. Dollars; well preferably as little as possible like we all say, but it depends really on what the options are. I cant imagine going on the high side of $1500 but even a PID upgrade of $250 or so would have to be justified. In hindsight, Chris Domobar would have been nice if it had more of a Silvia look to it, but I wasnt quite at this point when that was around.

    So, options. I guess one would be to PID the Silvia. Another would be to sell the Silvia and upgrade to something else that has better temp characteristics, be it SB, DB or HX, but I suspect the latter two are going to be a bit pricey. Bear in mind the main criteria in this exercise is to get better quality espresso (ironic since I rarely drink espresso), and if it happens to have better steaming capabilities then so much the better.

    What do you think?
    Greg

  • #2
    Re: Upgrade time?

    Hi Greg, you have to get over that nudey prudishness when it comes to group heads and go e-61...

    Your brief returns 2 x 2 word answers:
    [*]Domobar levetta[*]PID Silvia...

    For me, the Domobar every time due to beauty, simplicity, tweakability and the fact that the e-61 group is just soooo forgiving leading to consistently better espresso...

    I had a Silvia as the car boot machine and she got dumped for a levetta. I have no regrets whatsoever and would NEVER go back!

    Chris

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Upgrade time?

      Thanks Chris,

      Unfortunately the machine lives in a kitchen which is not mine in the same way the shed is mine, so those factors have to be considered. I personally have no issue with the E61 look. I guess if I got one the aesthetics would become normal over time. I guess a second hand Expobar Office may be an option if I could find one - theyre traditional in appearance and E61ish arent they?

      Im particularly interested to hear from anyone who has one as to what measurable difference the PID has made to a Silvia. Most have said its better with the PID because they dont have to temp surf, but I dont do that anyway so Im looking at measurable differences in shot quality. The cost of that would be easier to justify but if the improvement is only going to be minimal its hardly worth it.

      Greg

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Upgrade time?

        Hi Greg,
        i dont have any experience witih a Sylvia, but the Bott has benefited greatly from the PID... or rather, i have!
        the quality of the extractions is a lot more stabile, no more burning of the grinds or mis-judging the cooling flush and ending up with too cold a pour.
        it is simply load, lock and pull.
        and, the advantage of being able to increase or decrease the brewing temp according to the bean has been fantastic.. i find the Africans need a bit more heat than the South Americans or the SE Asia beans...one degree extra/less makes a lot of difference in the flavours in the cup.


        by the way: congratulations on the start of your Brown supplies!!

        [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]

        L

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Upgrade time?

          Hi Greg,
          I was/am in exactly the same boat as you. I would love a big flash machine, HX or DB, but found it hard to justify for the number of drinks I make. I also found it hard to get shot consistency with the Silvia, and a couple of years ago I went the PID route(I think that I was Jim’s first Ausi customer) and have been very happy with the result.
          With the PID there is no surfing and the shots are damm near identical, the only concession is to weather and bean type. I suspect that like many others, once you are familiar with the process, the speed with which the drink is produced makes for a longer wait for the boiler to get up to speed for steaming, which can be a bit of a pain. [smiley=sad.gif]
          This can be overcome by judicially cleaning up whilst waiting. [smiley=rolleyes.gif]
          I have decided to stay with Silvia for the moment for the following reasons:-
          The heat up time in the morning I suspect is quicker, only 300ml as opposed to >litres.
          Power usage has got to be less?
          Ease of cleaning/descaling.
          Very mechanical and simple, very little to go wrong.
          I haven’t found another machine that really calls to me at the price I want to pay.

          Having said all of that I think that I could be quite easily persuaded to change my mind. So keep us up to date on your progress.
          My 2c.

          Bruce (The fence sitter)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Upgrade time?

            All of this is very subjective of course when lots of passion enters into the decision making process, but having said that, if I was in your position Greg and wanted not only consistently great espresso quality but best bang for buck, then it is very difficult to bypass the PID argument, especially one of Jims kits.

            I guess in the overall scheme of things, there would be very little difference in monetary terms between the two recommendations that Chris made (which I whole-heartedly support by the way), since if you went the Levetta route, the sale of your Silvia plus the difference to buy the Levetta would be only slightly more than buying one of Jims kits and installing it yourself. If you had Chris install it for you, I imagine their would next to no dollar difference.

            Something else to keep in mind with the PID mod, is that most of Jims current kits also allow for PID control of the Steam as well and with this arrangement, the time difference between brewing and waiting for steam to build is significantly shorter and when ready, the steam power is maintained right to the end with little, if any, variation in output.

            I guess with even the Levetta, there will be a need to run a cooling flush before you start pulling shots, but with a PIDd Silvia et al this just isnt the case.... Once the PID has achieved equilibrium, you just walk up, pull your shot(s) (one after the other), switch over to Steam and within a very short time start texturing away to your hearts content.... a Litre at a time if required .

            So there you have it mate.... my two bobs worth. All the best with your decision,

            Cheers,
            Mal.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Upgrade time?

              Wow thanks for the feedback guys, and the toppie Lizzi! It sounds like a PID might be the go.

              One other option Id consider would be a second-hand Expobar or something as the lower end ones have the ... necessary ... aesthetics. How would something like, say, an Expobar Office compare in shot quality to a PIDd Silvia, given the group is better quality? If I could get them for around the same price such that cost ceased to be a factor, would shots be comparable? Given Id then have a HX rather than a SB which while a lower priority, is a bonus I could put up with.

              Greg

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Upgrade time?

                Whats all this talk of justification?

                If "justification" is the question then the answer is "coffee".



                And Greg, I dont know where youre going to find a 2nd hand Expobar.
                I cant imagine anyone giving one up.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Upgrade time?

                  Originally posted by Thundergod link=1196122872/0#7 date=1196167872
                  And Greg, I dont know where youre going to find a 2nd hand Expobar.
                  I cant imagine anyone giving one up.
                  Yep, youre right there TG..... Dont think Ive seen a single used Expobar prosumer machine up for sale, so thats got to be telling you something. 8-)

                  : Now then, Chris has got a simply gorgeous Diadema Unico Splendor Demo up for sale at a hell of a good price... bit beyond a PIDd Silvia or a new Levetta but hey, were talking about a machine to last a lifetime here and a look to die for..... Priceless,

                  Mal.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Upgrade time?

                    Hi Greg,

                    I may be able to help. I have a Sivia PID plus rocky at home and a La Cimbali Junior and Mazzer Mini at work. I have to say that the HX machine is fabulous and can churn out lovely coffee with amazing speed and consistency, We have at least 10 coffee drinkers at our office and the Cimbali is perfect.

                    However to be perfectly honest I cant say that the coffee produced is superior in quality to what I get from the Pid Silvia(I did notice an improvement in consistency and quality when the Silvia was modified) I have used the same beans at home and work on a few occasions now and to my palate the coffee quality is the same. I drink double espressos 2 a day max.

                    I realise that this is purely my observation only and contrary to what others have said

                    Perhaps one of our sponsors could set up a blind tasting to settle this question once and for all. Why not get a good barista to pour shots from a silvia and a few other machines and offer the cups for tasting to a panel of tasters who are unaware of which machine produced which cups.

                    Now I would like to know the outcome of that tasting assuming it hasnt been done already.

                    Cheers

                    Louis

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Upgrade time?

                      PS For what its worth. If spare cash is limited I think the best bang for buck after Pidding the Silvia would be to upgrade from a popper to a Hottop or Genecaffe home roaster

                      In my case I opted for the Hottop and have been more than satisfied with the significant leap in quality that resulted Well worth the money IMHO

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Upgrade time?

                        Originally posted by papalui link=1196122872/0#10 date=1196172369
                        PS For what its worth. If spare cash is limited I think the best bang for buck after Pidding the Silvia would be to upgrade from a popper to a Hottop or Genecaffe home roaster
                        Gotta be kidding mate

                        If the budget is tight, theres no way you could go past a a half-way decent Corretto setup for a small fraction of the cost of either a GC or a HT. This leaves plenty of cash in hand to satisfy what ever is desired in espresso hardware. Im not knocking either of the factory roasters but one can achieve exceedingly good results in a Corretto, at least the equal of the factory jobs and batch sizes at least double what either the GC or HT can manage.

                        For mine, Id be putting the extra cash towards the Unico in the first place if you had enough left to splash out on a factory roaster. Lots of ways to skin a cat I guess....

                        Mal.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Upgrade time?

                          Originally posted by Mal link=1196122872/0#8 date=1196170471
                          Originally posted by Thundergod link=1196122872/0#7 date=1196167872
                          And Greg, I dont know where youre going to find a 2nd hand Expobar.
                          I cant imagine anyone giving one up.
                          Yep, youre right there TG..... Dont think Ive seen a single used Expobar prosumer machine up for sale, so thats got to be telling you something. 8-)


                          Mal.
                          Funny you guys say that because on that certain evil web site.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Upgrade time?

                            Thanks Papalui, thats useful info. Anyone else got thoughts re HX vs PIDd Silvia? FWIW I know someone with an Expobar Office who is thinking of selling but I need to work out whats going to be the best solution. I like the idea of precise temperature control as with a PID, but I also like the idea of a HX machine. Sadly, only one will eventuate, but which? "That is the question".

                            Greg

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Upgrade time?

                              Originally posted by papalui link=1196122872/0#10 date=1196172369
                              PS For what its worth. If spare cash is limited I think the best bang for buck after Pidding the Silvia would be to upgrade from a popper to a Hottop or Genecaffe home roaster

                              In my case I opted for the Hottop and have been more than satisfied with the significant leap in quality that resulted Well worth the money IMHO
                              Something tells me that Greg doesnt need to upgrade his roaster!

                              Have you considered a workaround on the E61 aesthetics issue, Greg? Maybe bring home an Oscar and say, well, it was either this or an exposed group...

                              Comment

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