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  • Silvia and Classic side-by-side

    Id just like to thank Jack and Chris at Barazi coffee (one of this sites sponsors) for letting me test a Rancilio Silvia and a standard Gaggia Classic side-by-side.

    I havent analysed and prepared the results yet, but in terms of producing a stable brew temperature during the brewing process, the Silvia wins hands down. While the Classic exhibits a constantly falling temperature profile during a shot, the Silvia hold its temperature to less than 2 deg C during the brewing process.

    What does it all mean? Probably that the Silvia has the potential to make a better espresso than a Classic. But you still have to learn how to drive it.

    However, if you favour milk drinks, then you might never taste the difference.

    I hope no one thinks Im out to bash the Gaggia. I just like to know what youre paying for. In this case, it seems the extra money spent on a Silvia might be worth it, if you like espresso.

  • #2
    Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

    Try the new Sunbeam EM6900.
    You might just like it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

      Woohhh.

      I would back that one up with hard data I think. Not just a nice photo of some very thin stainless sheeting.

      Someone has taken a lot of trouble to analyze the Silvia and Classic. If you do the same and the data stacks up then we know that there is some substance behind this exterior.

      This machine is still vapourware and untested.

      Does it even exist in retail outlets yet?

      Grant

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

        The Gaggia has a 120ml boiler while the Silvia is packing a mighty 300mls. Just going by the numbers, Silvia should win temperature shootout every time.


        -Stephen-

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

          Originally posted by wattgn link=1120798525/0#2 date=1120810126
          Woohhh.

          I would back that one up with hard data I think.  Not just a nice photo of some very thin stainless sheeting.

          Someone has taken a lot of trouble to analyze the Silvia and Classic.  If you do the same and the data stacks up then we know that there is some substance behind this exterior.

          This machine is still vapourware and untested.  

          Does it even exist in retail outlets yet?

          Grant
          It is out. Ive got one.
          Dont criticize it before you test it or check it out yourself.
          This one is not only stainless steel on the outside but also on the inside. Check out the online PDF manual.
          Dont write it off just because it is a Sunbeam. You seem quick to judge. You must have some strong preconceptions very well intranched.
          If you want hard data, get it. In the mean time I am enjoying the machine. ;D

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

            Mind if I dip my thermocouple into your basket, Monti? ;D

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

              Originally posted by sharkboy link=1120798525/0#3 date=1120810839
              The Gaggia has a 120ml boiler while the Silvia is packing a mighty 300mls. Just going by the numbers, Silvia should win temperature shootout every time.


              -Stephen-
              I think there are more factors than just boiler size. If you do thiings carefully, then a small boiler can be temperature stable. My guess is that the compromise is for fast heat up of the boiler and group and low cost. As long as it works well enough. Afterall the Classic was designed for home use probably 20 years ago when most people were drinking nescafe 43 bean blend.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                Originally posted by Sparky link=1120798525/0#5 date=1120813387
                Mind if I dip my thermocouple into your basket, Monti?   ;D
                I am in Sydney and you are in Brisy.
                You better have a very long lead for your thermocouple.

                Why are you measuring the temp anyway.
                Are you saying that you cannot tell the difference which one makes a better coffee by just drinking it?
                If you cannot tell, then does it matter?
                If you can, then you dont need to measure it, do you?
                Or is it only an exercise to justity your decision to spend more money?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                  Monti:

                  Look upon it as a challenge rather than an insult.

                  On the other hand if you post pictures of a nice shiney machine on the internet which is untested then people will bite. ;D

                  Grant

                  PS. recommend that you stock up on A positive or whatever your blood type is in anticipation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                    Originally posted by wattgn link=1120798525/0#8 date=1120817429
                    Monti:

                    Look upon it as a challenge rather than an insult.

                    On the other hand if you post pictures of a nice shiney machine on the internet which is untested then people will bite.   ;D

                    Grant

                    PS.  recommend that you stock up on A positive or whatever your blood type is in anticipation.
                    I didnt take it as an insult. I am merely amazed how people (like yourself) prejudge things without any facts. Why dont you consider it a challenge (like you said) and find out those facts before you shoot your mouth off. Or is it only relevant to those that you dont agree with?

                    I only posted the picture because it is brand new, only came out yesterday, so that people can identify it as it is not common.
                    Of course, it is untested as it has just came out yesterday. It doesnt mean that it is not good though and people should keep away from it.

                    To me that it is nice and shiny is a plus and not a negative. But it is not just a nice and shiny pic on the internet as I actually own one, and it is nice and shiny in our kitchen.

                    People should not bite. Why do you think they should bite? Did I say anything bad? Did I hurt anyone? I only said to try it. I didnt say, just buy it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                      Monti:

                      Im not the one posting on the machine and I dont own one.

                      You are posting and you do own one!

                      If you look on CoffeeGeeks there is a lot of interest in this machine but also a lot of scepticism.

                      The scepticism is justified too. Although thermoblock machines can make reasonable espresso they havent to my knowledge been able to hold anywhere near the thermal stability of boiler machines. It is agreed too among experts that thermal stability is critical to good espresso.

                      It seems to me that a 15ml thermoblock has no room for error regarding any variables at all ie. flowrate. It would be a very hard balancing act. If someone can make it work really well then I take my hat off to them.

                      That is the challenge for an owner or someone who has access to one to prove us wrong. I mean sparky has found that an 8 degree drop during the pour DOES make a difference to taste.

                      I guess we want to see something objective. I mean temperature stability can be measured like any physical quantity and is uncoloured by emotion. Taste is subjective and depends on a host of factors and is VERY subjective.

                      I would honestly be interested in someone doing some work on this area. Alan Frew is going to dissect one soon I believe.

                      Maybe you should invite Sparky over with his thermocouple and drill? ;D

                      Grant

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                        Sparky


                        I think there are more factors than just boiler size. If you do things carefully, then a small boiler can be temperature stable.
                        I guess it depends on how you define temperature stability...
                        Ive got a Baby Gaggia (virtually the same as Classic), and Ive got a thermocouple. If you consider spiking at 96*C and dropping as low as 86*C during a 60ml extraction then weve got different ideas about  stability.

                        What other factors are there other than boiler size? Both machines have nice heavy groups, and commercial ie heavy brass portafilters. Ive surfed up and down and the best results I ever gotten still had a variation of 7*C

                        My contention was that the Gaggia cant match the Silvia for temperature stability. A point you made in your original post...
                        I own a Gaggia, so Im not bagging them, just stating what I believe to be the obvious.

                        Let me know what Ive overlooked...?

                        -Stephen-

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                          Now I know why we call ourselves coffee snobs.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side OT

                            Its getting closer

                            ie the chinese producing a machine that will compete with or better a Silvia. But it will obviously never have an italian name brand so therefore its only capable of crap coffees. yeah right personally I think that the chinesse machines will soon be as good if not better, certainly better value for money.

                            Still whats the snob value of saying "I have a "How Hi" espresso machine when you can say I have a Rancilio, Gaggia, ECM or what ever name brand" ?

                            So Long as the coffee is good, you and your friends enjoy it who cares what brand it is if you can get the same results time and again.

                            If I still drank coffee id like to try a coffee out of one of the new sunbeams. Infact is someone handy to Geelong has one ill give it a crack.. to hell with the Doc But I does have to be fresh home roast. Even if I gotta do it myself. ;D

                            Cheers
                            Rich

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                              Originally posted by wattgn link=1120798525/0#10 date=1120819296
                              Monti:

                              Im not the one posting on the machine and I dont own one.
                              Yes you are. You are posting negative things about a machine that you do not own. Or is that not posting?

                              Scepticism maybe justified, but you just shoot it down without even laying an eye on it and telling me how it is only a shiny picture of a machine when you have no idea, no reseach, no facts, nothing what so ever. On the other hand I merely said to someone to try. Completely disregarding something you never tried is not scepticism at all. It is arogant.

                              Although thermoblock machines can make reasonable espresso they havent to my knowledge been able to hold anywhere near the thermal stability of boiler machines. It is agreed too among experts that thermal stability is critical to good espresso.
                              Have those experts tested this machine yet? Have they?
                              How good are most people and not being able to tell the difference between shots from different machines and having to resort to thermocouples?

                              That is the challenge for an owner or someone who has access to one to prove us wrong. I mean sparky has found that an 8 degree drop during the pour DOES make a difference to taste.
                              Well, then test the Sunbeam and if it is not good then let us all know, but dont say that it is not good if you have not tested it.

                              I guess we want to see something objective. I mean temperature stability can be measured like any physical quantity and is uncoloured by emotion. Taste is subjective and depends on a host of factors and is VERY subjective.
                              If you want to be objective then test it and dont prejudge it.
                              Since, taste is subjective and it is what matters, there is no need for testing with a thermocouple especially when there are many other things that can effect the result. Also, a different end result doesnt mean it is a worse result.

                              I would honestly be interested in someone doing some work on this area. Alan Frew is going to dissect one soon I believe.
                              Why bother when you have already made up your mind and "know" that it cannot possibly achieve good results?

                              Maybe you should invite Sparky over with his thermocouple and drill? ;D
                              I am not interested in the result of a machine. I am interested how it tastes. The machine will not tell me if it tastes good or not.
                              I made coffee with the Sunbeam and also with a Brasilica Gradisca 2 group machine at our shop and they tasted virtualy the same. So, why would I need to measure it? To prove what? To prove that the expensive commercial machine is worth thousands of dollars more? The HX machine is good for producing many coffees in a row while the TB machine is better for few coffees in a row since it warms up in no time and no preparation is needed. They are different but they both produce the same shot.

                              But it is all irrelevant, anyway, as I merely suggested to have a TRY. On the other hand you just shot it down and were just negative about something you never ever even seen, let alone tried or tested.

                              Comment

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