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  • #16
    Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

    Remember that the machines such as the Giotto and Silvia are respected as the result of several years or more of inspection, dissection, analysis, tasting and testing as well as having to earn a reputation for reliability, durability, availability of parts and servicing.

    Any new machine whether it is chinese, italian or whatever will have to run the gauntlet. Most coffee people though will warm to a machine that delivers the goods.

    Thermoblock technology has the promise to deliver big time but so far I have seen no PROOF of this.

    As for the Sunbeam EM6900. If it tests well, doesnt break down and has good parts and service backup, well who knows, maybe even I might buy one!!!

    Grant

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

      Hey Monti,

      I dont think anyone is trying to "bag" the new 6900 machine. I for one believe that done properly, there is no reason why a t/block machine shouldnt be able to produce shots that are not the equal of more traditional designed machines. As with everything, time will tell.

      It makes sense though that a machine needs to maintain temperature stability of the Brew Water Circuit, no matter the design. Water temps that get too high make the resulting brew bitter and temps that dip too low will make the brew taste sour. This is empirical information based on decades of research by highly respected individuals and companies. It is only logical therefore, that people will try to identify machines that maintain this brew water temp stability as its one less variable to worry about when trying to consistently pull great shots of espresso.

      Running simple experiments and collating the data like Sparky has done help all of us. It makes it easier to determine which of a range of machines on the market, we should be putting on our short-lists before parting with all that cash. It also helps to identify methods that people can utilise on machines that they already own, to minimise temperature drift of brew water to further reduce this criterion as a notional variable that will effect the flavour of subsequent brews. This surely cant be a bad thing?

      I have run some simple experiments of my own along the lines of what Sparky has done but in nowhere near as much detail, to try and identify the voracity of any benefits that I might receive by fitting PID control to my Mokita. The results of my experiments were enough to convince me of the benefits to go ahead with this mod. Subsequently, I now have a machine that is capable of maintaining brew water temps to +/- 1.0-1.5 degrees of nominal during a pour. Plus, I get the added benefit of being able to adjust the temperature up or down depending on other factors, including ambient temperature.

      In a nutshell, Im all for people like Sparky undertaking experiments whose results can potentially benefit all of us here in CS. Of course in the end it is as you have said, it all comes down to taste and that will always be the most essential test. If it tastes good to you, then who has the right to tell you it doesnt? It would be interesting though to be able to get hold of one of the new Sunbeam 6900s and let Sparky loose with his data gathering and logging equipment, if for no other reason than that of curiosity.

      All the best,
      Mal.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

        PLEASE

        ...step away from the keyboards gents and count to ten...




        1

        2

        3

        4

        5

        6

        7

        8

        9

        10

        DING DING
        Round 2.



        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

          Originally posted by Mal link=1120798525/15#16 date=1120829392
          Hey Monti,


          I have run some simple experiments of my own along the lines of what Sparky has done but in nowhere near as much detail, to try and identify the voracity of any benefits that I might receive by fitting PID control to my Mokita. The results of my experiments were enough to convince me of the benefits to go ahead with this mod. Subsequently, I now have a machine that is capable of maintaining brew water temps to +/- 1.0-1.5 degrees of nominal during a pour. Plus, I get the added benefit of being able to adjust the temperature up or down depending on other factors, including ambient temperature.

          Hey Mal,

          going OT here but was the temp swing of you Mokita b4 you PIDd it? Im curious as I sometimes use a napoletana which I suspect isnt particularly stable. It has the same 300ml brass boiler as the silvia and a 57mm portafilter but the group and holder are a lot lighter. I believe its the same setup as the Mokita?

          Whilst the end prouduct is certainly very palatable the crema is never consistent in color within the one pour, usually tending to "pale out" after 10 or so seconds, I can never get the same dark tan syrupy consistency I always get with my hx machine regardless of bean freshness, grind and tamping variations.

          cheers

          Maurice

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side OT

            Originally posted by Rich and Rae link=1120798525/0#13 date=1120825815
            Its getting closer

            ie the chinese producing a machine that will compete with or better a Silvia. But it will obviously never have an italian name brand <snip>
            Theres every likelihood that the Chinese product will be sold with an Italian brand name. Look at how much stuff already is.

            Ron

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

              Originally posted by sharkboy link=1120798525/0#11 date=1120822520
              Sparky



              I guess it depends on how you define temperature stability...
              Ive got a Baby Gaggia (virtually the same as Classic), and Ive got a thermocouple. If you consider spiking at 96*C and dropping as low as 86*C during a 60ml extraction then weve got different ideas about  stability.

              What other factors are there other than boiler size? Both machines have nice heavy groups, and commercial ie heavy brass portafilters. Ive surfed up and down and the best results I ever gotten still had a variation of 7*C

              My contention was that the Gaggia cant match the Silvia for temperature stability. A point you made in your original post...
              I own a Gaggia, so Im not bagging them, just stating what I believe to be the obvious.

              Let me know what Ive overlooked...?

              -Stephen-
              Hi Stephen. Thanks mate, youre the first person to independently confirm what Ive found for the Gaggias.

              Im just pointing out that in theory, a small boiler can produce a stable temperature profile. Just not the small boiler-on-group design that Gaggia employ. Imagine a small but long boiler. If the feed water came in the bottom of the boiler and the brew water is taken from the top, you could design it such that the cold feed water stratifies and doesnt mix with the hot brew water. Then the brew water would remain close to optimum temperature when you deliver it to the group. As long as the group is separated from the boiler, the temperature should remain pretty stable. An other idea for the Gaggias is to use a second boiler to pre-heat the feed water and feed the brew boiler. When I used 55*C hot brew water, the temperature drop during the shot was halved (it just didnt do the pump any good).

              I believe that with a bit of inginuity, a decent small volume home espresso system is possible with any degree of temperature stability you want. (it just might cost a lot more :-/ ) (ref. Versalab M3)

              Cheers,

              Mark.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                Originally posted by mauricem link=1120798525/15#18 date=1120865970

                Hey Mal,

                going OT here but was the temp swing of you Mokita b4 you PIDd it? Im curious as I sometimes use a napoletana which I suspect isnt particularly stable. It has the same 300ml brass boiler as the silvia and a 57mm portafilter but the group and holder are a lot lighter. I believe its the same setup as the Mokita?

                Whilst the end prouduct is certainly very palatable the crema is never consistent in color within the one pour, usually tending to "pale out" after 10 or so seconds, I can never get the same dark tan syrupy consistency I always get with my hx machine regardless of bean freshness, grind and tamping variations.

                cheers

                Maurice
                Hi Maurice, bring your Napolitana to the next CG meeting and Ill log some temp profiles for you. Itd be good to get some more info on the popular mid-range domestic machines.

                Cheers,

                Mark.

                PS Everything will pale incomparison to the Cimbali ;D

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                  Originally posted by mauricem link=1120798525/15#18 date=1120865970

                  Hey Mal,

                  going OT here but was the temp swing of you Mokita b4 you PIDd it? Im curious as I sometimes use a napoletana which I suspect isnt particularly stable.
                  cheers

                  Maurice
                  Hi Maurice,

                  Personally, I thought the Boiler Temp swing was quite excessive - in the region of (+/-) 6-7 degrees C. This was measured at the top of the boiler adjacent to where the t/stats are placed. I dont know if this is typical of Mokita Boiler operation or idiosyncratic for my particular unit. Whatever the case, fitting of a PID controller certainly flattened this out.

                  Static Boiler Temp prior to pulling a shot is held to a range of (+/-) 0.5 C of the setpoint. Using a K Type thermocouple and my trusty Fluke DMM, the temperature dip of the brew water during a shot measured in the PF was always less than 1.5 C and when you consider thats starting with a water temperature of 94 C, the temperature is never falling below what is considered ideal.

                  Ive noticed that ambient temperature does have an effect, as in the middle of Summer, the maximum dip was usually less than 1.0 C so there must be a bit more temperature loss because of the steeper Temp Gradient between ambient and the Boiler Water Temp itself. All in all, Im very happy with the end result that the PID mod has achieved and would recommend it to anyone who wants to improve control of the Brew Water Temp and subsequent stability of the water temp in the PF.

                  Recently, the SSR I employed in the PID mod failed :P (infant mortality) and I had to resort back to Temp Surfing. Boy, do I miss that PID now . Wont be long before Ive got the replacement though and itll be back in business. Cant wait....
                  By the way, if it is at all possible it would be great if you could take Sparky up on his offer to test your Napoletina.... Would give us all a bit more data and information to work with .

                  All the best,
                  Mal.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                    My results are now posted on Coffeegeek:

                    http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/esp...achines/155722

                    Have a look if youre interested.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                      Originally posted by wattgn link=1120798525/15#15 date=1120828111
                      Remember that the machines such as the Giotto and Silvia are respected as the result of several years or more of inspection, dissection, analysis, tasting and testing as well as having to earn a reputation for reliability, durability, availability of parts and servicing.

                      Any new machine whether it is chinese, italian or whatever will have to run the gauntlet.  Most coffee people though will warm to a machine that delivers the goods.

                      Thermoblock technology has the promise to deliver big time but so far I have seen no PROOF of this.

                      As for the Sunbeam EM6900.  If it tests well, doesnt break down and has good parts and service backup, well who knows, maybe even I might buy one!!!

                      Grant
                      I agree with all of the above, but I just dont like you prejudge a machine that you havent seen or tested yet and havent had the opportunity of tasting the brew.

                      All the above machines are geat and I do like them too.
                      But again, if you only payed attention to what I have been saying all along, I merely said to try the machine, while you got negative about it without knowing anything about it. You dont have to tell me about the above machines, as I do know that they are very good indeed and I am not disputing any of it. It is just that you dont know the Sunbeam and you are disputing it.

                      I havent stuck a thermocouple up my Sunbeam but at least I have been drinking its brew and it tastes just like the one I produce with our commercial machine in the shop.

                      For your information the Sunbeam is not personally mine but it is in the family and I am the one that has been using it. I am not biased as I am going to buy a machine for myself as well soon and it may or may not be the Sunbeam. I dont mind spending more money to buy a machine if it is better.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                        OK all.... this is a little off-topic now.

                        Any more Sunbeam posts to the actual Sunbeam thread please.

                        http://www.coffeesnobs.com.au/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Brew;action=display;num=1109515596

                        ...and I for one look foward to reading all about the new Sunbeam taste tests in there ;D

                        Those wanting to continue the "Silvia and Classic" discussion, please do so below.

                        Andy.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                          Having used both, and knowing something of their insides, I am more confident with the Silvias stability. Unlike other posters, that confidence is based on the mass of the grouphead and portafilter rather than the boiler. Frankly, both boilers are too small to guarantee temp stability so its only logical to be looking at other moderating factors like the group head and handle.

                          One caveat though... after steaming milk, the small aluminium boiler on the Gaggia is likely to return to brewing temperature quicker than Silvia. So if youre making serial lattes you might be marginally better off with the Gaggia, but thats really clutching at straws!!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                            Hi guys/gals,
                            I am new to this coffee game I (in the past I just used a cafeteria out bush with a hand frother as we had no power) :-/

                            I am now looking at a Classic (which I can pick up new through a friend at 499) or the Silvia which after reading have been impressed with. I have to admit the aluminium corrosion issue is a little worry as well in the Gaggia (reading at Coffeeco.com.au)

                            So what I am after is some basic straight feedback on both.
                            I heard that Rancilio Silvia is a great machine but suffer from reliablity problems occasionally. Has anyone had that experience. I was also advised that the after market service from their reps in Australia is not that good. I think these last few issues are what is holding me off on the Silvia. I mean at 499 the Gaggia is attractive but then again to have brass and copper, am I better off with the Silvia?

                            I would like to hear from anyones experiences
                            cheers

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                              I know of very few sylvias which have packed it in unless not cleaned or run dry....theyre a great little machine and ya gets what ya pays for

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Silvia and Classic side-by-side

                                Ive had mine for nearly a year, no problems whatsoever.
                                As long as you keep it clean (which Im sure would be true for ANY machine), itll serve you well.

                                Comment

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