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Plumbing in prosumer machines and rotary pumps

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  • Plumbing in prosumer machines and rotary pumps

    After finding out that old Boema machines have the Procon rotary pump mounted under the sink got me looking at the issues of plumbing in prosumer machines most of which use vibrating pumps.

    From what I have read vibrating pumps are not really designed to operate with mains pressure inlets whereas with rotary pumps this is highly desirable. Also given that most prosumer machines are too small to fit a standard Procon pump would it not be desirable to fit the pump under the sink? Would this up the performance of these machines while improving their reliability?

  • #2
    I have thought you could use the vibe pump wiring to trigger a relay to run the procon. And plumb the procon so the vibe pump is bypassed.
    But then I thought it would be easier to run a ball float in the tank, and just plumb the water to that.
    Either way, I haven't drilled a hole in the bench yet

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    • #3
      Jackster Yes I am sure you could wire it via relay connected to the vibe pump wiring but what am really curious about is it a good idea to use an under sink rotary pump on a machine that was designed with a vibe pump?

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      • roosterben
        roosterben commented
        Editing a comment
        Ted2013: What Prosumer machine?

        If it is an E61 machine they often had a Vibration / Rotary pump option for their higher end models. As long as there is an OPV valve there to avoid over pressure situation I don't see how the machine would react any differently to a different type of pump as long as it can deliver the 9-12 bar it is used to.

        You only have a couple of situations where the pump is initiated a) Boiler refill b) Lever or button actuation so as long as it wired (or relayed from the normal pump).

        No expert but those are my thoughts

    • #4
      Roosterben I heard on a Seattle Coffee Utube that it is not ideal to operate a Vibe pump on a mains pressure inlet but that a rotary pump works best with a mains pressure inlet - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjdaqUso6wIThink what the guy is saying rotary pumps are more efficient with a pressure inlet whereas a pressured inlet is not desirable for a vibe pump. Does that not suggest thatmachines with rotary pumps work best mains connected while vibe pump machines work best off a tank ? That is not to suggest a vibe pump will not work off mains though it might be better to have a system that fills a tank from the mains.

      I realise you use an OPV to regulate output pressure on a Vibe pump whereas a on rotary pump this is regulated on the pump itself.

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      • #5
        Originally posted by Ted2013 View Post
        Roosterben I heard on a Seattle Coffee Utube that it is not ideal to operate a Vibe pump on a mains pressure inlet but that a rotary pump works best with a mains pressure inlet - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjdaqUso6wI Think what the guy is saying rotary pumps are more efficient with a pressure inlet whereas a pressured inlet is not desirable for a vibe pump.
        Correct.

        Does that not suggest that machines with rotary pumps work best mains connected while vibe pump machines work best off a tank ?
        No. You're reading too much into it. Rotary pumps themselves work best connected to mains, but most operate just fine pulling from a jerry can. It's like saying a car operates best at 80kph. Nothing wrong with doing 40 in a school zone, or 110 on the highway. As long as you're within design spec there's nothing wrong with it. Vibration pumps on the whole are not designed to operate with head pressure, so doing that to them won't end well. There are a couple of vibration pump machines that are designed to be plumbed though and those are fine as designed.

        That is not to suggest a vibe pump will not work off mains though it might be better to have a system that fills a tank from the mains.
        Try it and see.

        I realise you use an OPV to regulate output pressure on a Vibe pump whereas a on rotary pump this is regulated on the pump itself.
        An OPV is still required in the system after a rotary pump, is just usually set much higher (e.g. 12bar) to protect other components, rather than being used to regulate the pressure, as you say the pump bypass valve regulate the pressure.

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        • #6
          level3ninja Thanks for that explanation. Very helpful. However it does suggest you should be careful about plumbing in a machine with a vibe pump unless the setup is designed to handle the mains pressure.

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          • roosterben
            roosterben commented
            Editing a comment
            Have a look at pressure reducing valve as I imagine they would be included in a setup where a Vibrating pump is plumbed in. I recently worked on a San Marino Lisa Junior 1 group which is a plumbed machine with a vibrating pump (first one I have come across, but then I have only worked on a handful of plumbed machines). If you wanted to talk to someone with some good knowledge someone like Bombora Water Supplies might be worth a call.

        • #7
          I've been running a vibe pump on mains for over 15 years. I have a pressure regulator installed before my water filter and an adjustable regulator inside the machine to feed the pump. To be honest, the Ulka pump seems to work fine without the second regulator.

          Evan.

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          • #8
            Makes sense you can protect the Vibe pump using pressure regulators.

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            • #9
              one other advantage to having a cabinet mounted pump is it makes a quiet pump even quieter

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              • #10
                Aaron yes and would allow you to operate a smaller prosumer machine with a commercial Procon pump under the sink but as Jackster wrote you would need to run a low voltage line and relay to control the pump. I also guess you would also need to run dual plumbing to both fill the boiler and to connect to the pump outlet / OPV in the machine or is there some trick to avoid this? For example would be OK to also connect the boiler filler to the pump outlet or is that risky?

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                • #11
                  The existing pump outlet in the machine is how the boiler gets filled. You'd have to do extra work not to connect it that way.

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                  • #12
                    pcrussell50 has connected a rotary pump under his bench to run his Breville Dual Boiler. He has a separate switch to turn on the pump so that when he starts a shot he can let the line pressure do a preinfusion phase before starting the pump.

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                    • #13
                      Thanks guys. That is great.

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                      • #14
                        I would have put the pump relay inside the coffee machine, had it triggered by the vibe pump and so just needed the power cable to the rotary pump from the coffee machine.
                        ​​​​​​

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                        • Ted2013
                          Ted2013 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Jackster I assume you would replace the vibe pump with the relay?

                      • #15
                        That's what I was thinking.
                        But I was going to pull a diagram of a machine that has a rotary pump option to see the difference. I think some have a solenoid to run the preinfusion.
                        I was also thinking to use a ex-dishwasher feed pipe as some have that leak sensing shutoff that would be a nice addition.

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