Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • nunu
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    I need to get a trolley, so I can push my machine around, or maybe a nifty carrying case.

    Its like having one of those LG lcd internet fridges. Good to show off to your friends, but is it really all that practical?

    Leave a comment:


  • garglebutt
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    Meile have produced a similar looking machine for years http://www.miele.com.au/products/lis...=30&domestic=1 that looks bloody cool so this may be a copy of their design (or vica versa).

    Nothing wrong with this design in principle, particularly if style and integration are primary buying considerations. Downsides are: expensive, thermoblock, non portable.

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • mattyj
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    all these nipples and stopcocks, now I know why the plumber next door is always smiling!

    ... sorry, just trying to lighten the mood in here ...

    Leave a comment:


  • AlMac
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    FC, this is the most useful thread I have read in a long time.

    In the charge for plumbed in machines in the home this is one issue I have never seen raised. Its something people should at least think about.

    Better get myself a shut off device.

    I think washing machines are left without auto shut off (my dishwasher has one though) because washing machines are generally in proper wet areas and at least have a drain near by (or should) if they over flow - although even this probably wouldnt save you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Javaphile
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    Originally posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1128607812/15#22 date=1128757746
    Nunu and Java please note:

    Whilst stainless steel braided reinforced water hoses are one of the the best kind of flexible water hoses to use, they do fail. Inside the braided stainless steel, it is still a rubber hose subject to bursting through age, fatigue, chafing, contact with hot water, etc. In addition, they can and do also fail at the ends, where the hose is crimped onto the end union/nipple.

    Such hoses may fail a couple of days after being fitted from brand new, or 10 years down the track.

    Thats the thing you see...you cant tell when the hose is going to fail.
    I never said they wouldnt fail FC. *Every hose and pipe out there *will eventually fail. Guaranteed. Whether they are made of poly, rubber, PVC, copper, or iron. The difference between them being the mean time between failures with the range being as little as a few years for the poly tubing to 50 years for the metal pipes.

    I dont know about over there in Oz but here in the US it is now standard to use the flexible hoses/pipes (usually the fiber reinforced vinyl or the flexible plastic ones vs the braided SS ones due to their being cheaper) to connect from the main water pipes in the building to all the sinks, toilets, and plumbed in devices such as washing machines and dishwashers. Virtually the only devices that use water that are hard plumbed in with the same materials that the main water pipes are made from are hot water heaters and boiler type furnaces. *Everything else uses a lower grade/rated type of pipe/hose to connect to the main water supply.

    Over the course of my life I have seen every one of these types of pipes/hoses break/leak, from the cheapo poly tubing right up to the most expensive rigid copper and iron piping. I have had the boilers in both furnaces and hot water heaters suddenly rupture and start spewing water.

    Yet despite this no one I know (or have even heard of) turns off the water supply to *all of these devices every night or when they leave their house.

    If your espresso machine is properly plumbed in with any of the higher grade hoses or pipes there is no more of a risk of it leaking than there is of the connections to your sinks and toilets leaking. If you are using high quality/rated hose/pipe to connect the espresso machine to the water supply and you are turning it off every night to prevent a leak then you should by the same logic also be turning off the water supply to all the sinks, toilets etc in your house for the same reason. Assumming youre using the same hose/pipe on the espresso machine (and that its properly routed and connected) that is used on the sinks, the sinks actually have a higher chance of failing due to their having hot water running through them rather than room temp water.

    Yes, to minimize the risk of accidental flooding you should be turning off the water supply to all appliances/devices when-ever theyre not in actual use. Do people do it? No, they dont. Why? Because its a matter of convenience and risk assessment.

    Our entire life is one continuous risk assessment after another. Everybodys level of acceptable risk is different and everybodys level of risk is different depending on their equipment and environment.

    In reguards to the risk of a water leak barring going to the extreme of shutting off the water to the entire building every night there is no one answer that is "right" for everyone.

    The "right" answer will be different for every individual depending on their equipment, their environment, and their personal willingness to accept risk versus convenience.

    It is not up to any of us to tell another "This is what you *must do.". The best we can do is to inform people of our personal assessment based on our experience and beliefs of the various levels of risk involved in the usage of their equipment and the materials involved and then let them decide for themselves what materials are most appropriate and what level of risk is acceptable to them.

    Having said all that my personal opinion/advice (which you are free to use or ignore in part or in whole as you wish) in re plumbed in water connections to an espresso machine is that:
    • Poly tubing should *never be used.
    • Use a Stainless Steel Braided hose if you cant plumb in using copper or other metal piping due to the location or the need to be able to easily move the machine.
    • Route the water line as far as possible from the boiler and other heat generating parts of the machine or other sources of heat.
    • Route the water line as far as possible from any electrical wiring.
    • Route the water line out of any sunlight.
    • Install an easilly accessible and easily manipulated shut-off valve where the house piping connects to the espresso machines water line.
    • Anchor all water lines (the distance between anchor points will be determined by the material used and the installation) to reduce damage from vibrations.
    • Turn off the water supply to the espresso machine when it is not being used if it is appropriate to your equipment and your usage of it.
    • Use some kind of a device that detects a leak and shuts off the water on the affected leg.


    Java "My fingers are tired" phile

    Leave a comment:


  • wattgn
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    FC,

    This has actually been quite a productive topic.

    I mean people now know about flood prevention devices as an option too.

    The topic has broadened from turning the water off as one option to these flood prevention devices.

    Not everyone will want to turn the water off. The option might not be acceptable.

    I have found the following devices:

    1. Alarms hooked up to surface flooding protection sensors. Cost $90AUD approx.

    2. Alarms hooked up to surface flooding protections sensors and an auto shut off valve $100AUD approx.

    3. Device that only allows 5L of water to flow continuously then shuts off. Cost unknown.

    There are some other devices too that look like they hook up to the solenoids in say a washing machine and so the water should only be allowed to flow when these are on. Cost unknown.

    Some people have alluded to other sophisticated devices but it looks like something highly effective can be sourced for less than $100.

    Sounds good to me!

    Grant

    Leave a comment:


  • Fresh_Coffee
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    Most cafe owners know virtually nothing about espresso machines (and coffee).

    They wouldnt know where to find the stop cock to turn it off. They wont even replace replaceable water filters that have "replace at 6 monthly inetrvals" printed on them in large capital letters.

    They are merely the driver, not the mechanic.

    They have no knowledge of multiples of espresso machine installations...if they know anything about it, they only know it about their own single installation, and their own singular experience with it. If they have never had a failure, they dont realise they should be worried about it. So its a pointless excercise asking them about it Im afraid.

    Cafe owners are not in the coffee and coffee machine industries and therefore cannot be EXPERTS in those fields.

    Famous last words. Your expert said "...He said that flooding probably wouldnt be a serious issue in the cafe anyway, even if it did happen....."

    I personally have knowledge of a water line to an espresso machine that burst in a cafe in a very large shopping mall. The water ran all night, flooding various surrounding businesses, making its way along the atrium outside those shops, and eventually ending up in the lift well of the nearest elevator. The elevator failed, was repaired, and subsequently failed again because they hadnt got all the water out of the hydraulics the first time around.

    You can guess at the final account. Centre Management passed the cost on.

    This is preventable, and an extremely simple exercise. Turning on and off is covered in professional barista classes, its even written in barista books.

    There is no excuse for bad management, and I dont understand whats to argue over and over about. I have simply warned the list about leaving the water on.


    Nunu and Java please note:

    Whilst stainless steel braided reinforced water hoses are one of the the best kind of flexible water hoses to use, they do fail. Inside the braided stainless steel, it is still a rubber hose subject to bursting through age, fatigue, chafing, contact with hot water, etc. In addition, they can and do also fail at the ends, where the hose is crimped onto the end union/nipple.

    Such hoses may fail a couple of days after being fitted from brand new, or 10 years down the track.

    Thats the thing you see...you cant tell when the hose is going to fail.


    Im tired of being run around this topic with pointless and unnecessary, cyclic argument.

    Regardz,
    FC.

    Leave a comment:


  • wattgn
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    Nunu:

    I was just speaking to a cafe owner and he said that he wouldnt turn the water off overnight as it would just cause complications by people not turning it back on in the morning. He said that flooding probably wouldnt be a serious issue in the cafe anyway, even if it did happen.

    Another EXPERT opinion.

    I wouldnt turn the water off to my machine as I have it on a timer to come on in the morning.

    I suppose the only step I might consider is putting a auto shutoff valve on it. To be frank though Im really not worried about it.

    Again though it is relative risk. I remain comfortable with leaving it on. It also has a plumbed in drain so it eliminates flooding from free flowing through the machine in event of a valve failure.

    Grant

    Leave a comment:


  • nunu
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    What weve come up with so far:

    - Turn water off after use.
    - Use auto-shutoff valves.
    - Use pressure limiting valves.
    - Use braided steel hoses.
    - Night is the riskiest time, due to lack of use.
    - Inline filtration units have built in pressure limiting valves.
    - Hose/inlet failure can cost you heaps of $$$.
    - Extra care must be taken with regards to inbuilt appliances that use water.


    Leave a comment:


  • wattgn
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    Gonzo:

    This expertise thing bugs me. A lot of this is just opinion, not whether you have been in the industry for 20 years.

    If you take that line then we would just sit and listen to the experts.

    Grant

    Leave a comment:


  • Gonzo_150
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    I have been watching this list quietly almost ever since it started around 18 months ago and on the basis of my own professional background in espresso coffee machines, sales and service, the time has come to place my first post which will be in support of a fellow industry professional who seems to be being hounded around this topic by someone with no expertise.

    There are a couple of things I can add to all this discussion on plumbing.

    The context of this topic is with regards to espresso machines is it not?

    I fail to understand what the big deal is about not wanting to turn the water on and off to a plumbed in espresso machine. Its black and white.

    For anyone that is at work or at home all day with their machine, this means simply ON first thing in the morning, and OFF last thing at night before bed.

    For the rest of you, it means ON/OFF for the b/fast cuppa, and probably ON again when you get home from work, and OFF before bed. And on the weekend, just like any cafe, ON first up, and OFF at the end of the day or before bed. Or, it might mean On/Off at b/fast, lunch, and in the evening.

    At worst, this means ON and OFF only 3 times a day, and probably only twice.

    WHATS SO DIFFICULT ABOUT THAT, that we have to have someone with no expertise in here not only trying hard to discredit the advice, but "recommending" to list readers not to follow it?

    Particularly in the context of the post in the first page of this topic, where it was stated in so many words, that some / many domestic / or in built / machines were not really manufactured with the idea in mind that they would be plumbed in and end up being "modified" to the task, and because of this, can be problematic particularly from the point of view of drainage, and therefore can even more easily fill your up house with water.

    The idea of whether to turn water on/off or not is really quite simple - Leave it on at your own peril.


    G.

    Leave a comment:


  • GR8WineandCoffee
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    An interesting discussion.
    For the record there are a lot of water lines that go POP in the middle of the night that we never hear of.
    A few years ago I had involvement in the water filtration industry and spent a few years assisting a group of concerned industry professionals write a standard for water treatment appliances. This standard has been up and running for a number of years. During my time playing water filters, I was suprised to hear first hand about the actual number of burst hoses and water filter housings. Most of the flooding occured at night. Why at night???? Very simple, during the night there is usually a pressure build up in the water mains, due to the fact that we are asleep and that we are not using as much H2O.
    Pressure limiting valves are designed to do just that limit the pressure. Please be aware that these pressure limiting valves/devices DO FAIL and FAIL they DO.
    Flow is a different issue. There are things that can be done to restrict the flow.
    It was always recommended to turn all appliances connected to the H20 off at night. But who does??? Not many, including ME.
    My water filter specialist recently demonstrated a neat little device called a Leak Controller. It incorporates a water alarm and shut-off system. It has a small main unit that the water line passes through and a sensor pad. When the sensor pad detects any moisture it sends a signal back to the main unit and the water shuts of. Simple and very effective. If you would like some info on this unit email brad@premierwater.com.au
    Back to the original POST. Have had a few coffees from some of these wall units, so far nothing to write home about.
    John

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    Originally posted by wattgn link=1128607812/0#14 date=1128676781
    In normal home use no one turns off the water to their washing machines or dishwashers or water filtration units/espresso machines....

    Grant
    They dont :-?,

    Ive made it a habit of doing exactly that for the past 40 years or so :P.

    A friend of ours was helping someone with his dishwasher. When he put it back he didnt realise but he had fractured one of the water fittings. It ended up leaking slowly and unfortunately onto the wooden floor laid on the concrete. By the time they had found the leak, it had warped all the floorboards. Mmm. Took two months before they could rip up the boards and replace them as they had to dry first. Mind you the flood protection things only work when a line completely fractures pretty well.
    Actually Grant, Shut-Off Protection Valves will work in the situation you describe as any pressure imbalance sensed between the intake and the exhaust will operate the valve and shut the water supply off. They also are not that expensive these days, considering the amount of damage they can potentially prevent.

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • wattgn
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    marc:

    I was reading your post again. Yes, a high rise. Mmm. Yes, some extra flood prevention measures would be required.

    Even Java in his min high rise (a high rise dug into the ground) could have saved his basement stuff.

    It is funny how things can happen. A friend of ours was helping someone with his dishwasher. When he put it back he didnt realise but he had fractured one of the water fittings. It ended up leaking slowly and unfortunately onto the wooden floor laid on the concrete. By the time they had found the leak, it had warped all the floorboards. Mmm. Took two months before they could rip up the boards and replace them as they had to dry first. Mind you the flood protection things only work when a line completely fractures pretty well.

    Grant

    Leave a comment:


  • wattgn
    replied
    Re: New SMEG Intergrated Plumbed Machine-picture

    Mark:

    Appliances that can result in water damage to your home include, water heaters, washing machines, dishwashers,refrigerators with icemakers plumbed in, espresso machines and in line filtration systems and even evaporative coolers mounted on the roof.

    Yes, there are if you look on internet special valves and sensors which can prevent flooding for all of these appliances.

    In normal home use no one turns off the water to their washing machines or dishwashers or water filtration units/espresso machines and I would say that there is a small but real risk of flooding with any of these appliances.

    I think rather than turning the water off and on all the time just periodically inspect the lines to your espresso machine and also ensure that a pressure limiting valve is fitted.

    Grant

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X