Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What really allows a more expensive espresso machine makes better espresso?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What really allows a more expensive espresso machine makes better espresso?

    Hi there...

    I have been making espresso and had experience with a few espresso machines in the past few years. I also read and watched information about how to pull a great espresso shot. From what I heard so far, the most important contributing factor for pulling a great shot is brew temperature, water flow rate and brew pressure and I didn't hear many things else. However, all those things aren't exactly difficult to achieve via a low 1k espresso machine with some simple mod. However, there are many much more expensive machines exist in the market. I definitely don't dismiss their value of existence and they can cost more for all kind of reasons. However, all I am interested in today is about "shot quality".

    Therefore my question is, if I have a $500 and $5000 espresso machines side by side and both can provide the same steady set brew temperature, water flow rate and pressure, what are the other big "machine related" factors which will potentially allows the more expensive machines consistently makes superior shot?

    Just want to emphasise that I am not asking about anything none machine related, such as grind quality, puck prepare, pre-infusion or different brewing technique. In my question, all those non-machine related "variables" will assume to be equalled for both machines.

    Really interested in you guys' thought and thanks in advance! Have a great day!

  • #2
    A couple of relevant points.
    This morning a storm front came through Victoria and I am without power.
    Instead of using my Bianca and Lagom P64 to make my morning cuppa I used my 40+ year old Faema Baby and a 40 year old hand grinder with water from a kettle over a gas camping stove.
    Making a coffee on the Bianca is simple even when flow profiling, it is easily repeatable and stable for multiple shots.
    The espresso from the old Baby is sweet, smooth and just as good as the Bianca, using medium roasted Brazil Naturals, but it is a fiddly workflow.
    I don’t know how it would cope with 3rd wave light roasts.

    Comment


    • amberale
      amberale commented
      Editing a comment
      No mate, we had no power, (no electricity) all day and I could only heat water on an old gas camp stove.
      The Bianca is electric, the Baby is not.
      Workflow or ease of use is definitely “worth’ something to me.
      I can cope with pre-warming baskets, pulling a shot into one cup then pouring that into another etc for one drink but if I have multiple coffees to make the fully plumbed in double boiler makes the whole process simple.

    • ewenger
      ewenger commented
      Editing a comment
      Got it, yes, absolutely agree on the workflow. I also pay fair bit of attention to UX in anything and I value that aspect as well.

      I used to own a Gaggia Classic Pro. It's simple to use for sure, but it requires some practice to get the temperature surfing technique right to only get a ballpark desirable temp level. It's also a little frustrating knowing that it need some "hack" to get the steaming strong enough to froth milk well enough. It can surely pull great shots and froth finely, but the effort is there to be put in before you can get a good result. Not exactly what I want to encounter every morning esp during fast pace workdays..

    • amberale
      amberale commented
      Editing a comment
      I had a Gaggia Classic from about 1998 to 2020 when I bit the bullet and upgraded to a DB, flow control, rotary pump.
      I can make great espresso on a pimped Gaggia but life is short and technology has advanced in leaps and bounds.

  • #3
    However, all those things aren't exactly difficult to achieve
    Let me start by saying i like your thought process! In theory you could probably throw some parameters out there to emulate the perfect 'machine factors - but I think in practice , the consistency and uniformity of those factors are part of the build- and this is where superior machines rise to the top - this doesn't necessarily mean expensive means good though.

    Temperature stability is one area that many 'good machines' rest their hat and reputation - the E61 group head as an example , or PID controllers that are quick to react and remove heavy fluctuation or saturated group head designs - it is important and this is one area that the quality machines provide a consistent good experience - things like the right sized boilers or the correct heating elements can't be discounted in production of this

    Brew pressure - and its manipulations are a current area of improvement - with paddle shifters and/or profile control in the pointy end machines but don't discount how the puck sees the water - through the shower screens and even quality of the holes in the portafilter basket.

    In many instances- good design is a factor of R&D over years - or in the case of some of the newer techy type machine heavy and quick updating.

    So , if you are up to it, get a cheap but good machine - but you will probably have to mod it to improve the qualities you are looking for. Apologies to Rancilio owners who may disagree - but as an example in the earlier years - a rancilio silvia was possibly an example of that mode of operation - cheaper than many - capable of a good coffee and improved greatly when PID added.

    But probably every company that goes into business to make a cheaper more affordable coffee machine to take on the big name guys - thinks they have that recipe - but the results aren't always reflected in the cup. Cheers

    Comment


    • ewenger
      ewenger commented
      Editing a comment
      This is brilliant and insightful, FNQ, exactly the thing I am looking for. Thanks heaps!

      From my understanding, it seems like (largely speaking) another big factor to set the machines apart is how "steadily and consistently" these machines can follow through and execute the same set variables (temp, pressure etc.). Noted!

      I used to have a Gaggia Classic Pro and it improved notably as I put in common mods recommended by the community. However, I sold it after my upgrade as I don't have space to keep both machine otherwise I would love to keep on modding the machine and test it against the more expensive one I have now. It would be really interesting competition, a bit like modified cheap (but good) sports car vs a premium sports car from the get go. it's fun big time!

  • #4
    Control and consistency of the variables (pressure, temperature, flow rate, water dispersion, etc).

    Everything else will relate to reliability of components, efficiency and shiny knobs and doo dads.

    There are so many processes from bean to cup and the machine only covers the final portion of these.

    The user and ingredient is a great deal of the equation. After a decade of commercial roasting, cupping, specialty coffee testing and training i would wager I could produce a superior result on an entry level machine vs a novice on a La Marzocco Linea or similar. Likewise Roger Federer would likely demolish me using a ping pong paddle.

    Comment


    • ewenger
      ewenger commented
      Editing a comment
      Yep, "consistency" of execution is definitely on the list! Thanks!👍

      100% agreed about the skill and all other factor! However, my approach to consistently make a quality espresso shot is a bit like understanding a math equation. A great shot of espresso is a function of many many variables and I would like to understand and study each variables in that equation to know how to consistently achieve the desirable outcome. 😀

  • #5
    I thinks it's a great question and I'd love to hear others opinions.

    A few thoughts why some more expensive machines may be worth it.

    1. Stability of temperate at the group head when the machine is left on for hours

    2. Consistency of pressure throughout the pour, or indeed the ability to vary the pressure/flow during the pour, including pre infusion duration and pressure

    3. Steam pressure is greater and it's easier to texture milk

    4. More durable due to better quality components

    5. Ability to easily adjust the brew temperature

    6. Ability to pour the espresso and steam milk at the same time

    7. They look beautiful

    Comment


    • ewenger
      ewenger commented
      Editing a comment
      Yep agree on all points here. And stability and consistency are definitely the repeated variables I have gathered here so far then it's the most advance variable like what level3ninja mentioned below. Thanks! Appreciated the input!

  • #6
    YGWYPF generally holds for coffee machines but like anything else you get diminishing returns the higher you go. Pick a budget, do your research, buy a machine, enjoy good coffee.

    Like others have said, things like quality/reliability, customer support, workflow and aesthetics are important but also hard to define or "prove" and often are subjective/personal (what's important to me might not be to you).

    Comment


    • ewenger
      ewenger commented
      Editing a comment
      Hiya dischucker, thanks for the comment, probably a silly question here. I am guessing YGWYPF stands for many brewing related variables, but would you be able to let me know what they are all short for? Thanks in advance!!!!

    • amberale
      amberale commented
      Editing a comment
      I reckon “You Get What You Pay For”

    • ewenger
      ewenger commented
      Editing a comment
      lol~and here I am thinking it's some acronym standing for a golden rules of legendary brewing variables ha! Maybe we should make one...

  • #7
    Originally posted by ewenger View Post
    From what I heard so far, the most important contributing factor for pulling a great shot is brew temperature, water flow rate and brew pressure and I didn't hear many things else. However, all those things aren't exactly difficult to achieve via a low 1k espresso machine with some simple mod.
    These things can be achieved on a cheap machine with a couple of mods, correct. However the amount of skill/trial & error required to get all these variables 100% consistent shot after shot on such a machine is quite high. And therein lies the rub. Making a machine that will do all that and make good coffee both out of the box and for years and years is not doable for $1k.

    John Buckman, the founder of Decent Espresso, started the company and named it such because he believed it should be possible to make a coffee machine that makes decent coffee for under $1k(US). He knew the variables at play and knew how many other machines / appliances were working with one or more of the variables and figured it couldn't be that hard to optimise all the components to produce a decent espresso.

    If you know anything about Decent Espresso and their DE1 coffee machines, you'll know that the difference between what I've described above and what they currently make are one of the greatest examples of scope creep since the term was invented. This is because, in practice, it's not as simple as it sounds to make a decent espresso machine. That's mostly because while shot-to-shot consistency across the key variables is critical, those variables largely need to be consistent curves, not consistent linear values from the start of the shot to the end.

    Pressure profiling has been a thing for a little while now, and it's generally agreed pressure should ramp up, hold a certain pressure then ramp down (though the shape, timing, and levels of each of those will be hotly contested). Temperature should, well it's not entirely known. Constant temperature is often quoted, and can be very good, but temperature profiling is in the very beginning stages of starting to become a thing. Flow profiling is a little further along than temperature profiling, but not as far as pressure profiling. A constant flow rate into the cup is often the aim, but how do you make the output flow constant when the puck resistance changes shot to shot and also throughout the course of each shot? By changing the pressure to suit along the way.


    So that's a whole thing. The cost difference between something like a Gaggia Classic with a PID and a light dimmer knob to control the pump, and a machine that does it all for you on the fly is huge. The amount of data you're processing in order to control the shot manually is quite expensive to get a machine to do. The other option is a mechanical system which does some of that itself. It might not be able to do it across a wide variety of beans and roast levels but it will do a reasonable job.


    Then there's the fact that the absolute minimum cost you could do the above for, with you just pushing a button or lifting a lever, is not going to be cheap once you take the engineering into account.

    Most people expect a certain level of apparent quality (i.e. look and feel) for a certain amount of money they spend on something. This means that since a machine that is "good enough" out of the box won't be anywhere near $500, consumers are going to expect a certain look, feel, and longevity from it (and for most people chasing quality in the cup "appliance grade" won't cut it). This necessitates additional expense. The additional expense increases expectations. This cycle continues up the price mountain, with consumers getting off the train at every price station until there are only the few people left who can both afford and see the value in a $20k espresso machine at home. There's also a lot of salesmanship in the romance of a well made machine. It makes it nicer to make the coffee but not nicer to drink it.

    There are a few options for the more price conscious. If quality in the cup is all you're after and you aren't put off by appliance grade, the Breville Dual Boiler will beat or match anything under about $3.5k when it comes to espresso quality in the cup. Yes they have plastic and yes they do have occasional lemons. But they have excellent temperature stability, adjustable preinfusion and when combined with a good grinder, good baskets, good water, and good beans, they produce excellent espresso. Their biggest drawback is that they're manufactured to a price point, but they're well engineered.

    The Breville DB has been much maligned for being structurally made of plastic, but I've never heard of one having an issue with the chassis. The new line of Crem One machines also use a plastic chassis.

    TLDR: Yes it's that simple. No it's not that simple.

    Comment


    • tompoland
      tompoland commented
      Editing a comment
      Terrific post thanks level3ninja, learnt a lot including the fact that John Buckman thought he could create a decent machine for under 1,000 and ended up closer to 5,000. Very interesting, thanks.

    • level3ninja
      level3ninja commented
      Editing a comment
      tompoland yeah he wanted to make a machine where you push a button and the machine just makes good coffee. He went around to loads of coffee experts and asked what the machine needs to do and the only consensus he got was that we really don't know, we need to know what's going on, what's actually physically happening, not just what we think is happening. So he built that machine first. Maybe in 10 years we'll know, but will he be able to build a $1k machine to do it? My understanding is the Default Profile is probably the best if you were only going to have one profile, but he couldn't reduce the cost of the machine by much more than the tablet at the moment and doesn't want to invest the R&D time and money into figuring out how to make a 1 hit wonder version when he's only just keeping up with demand on the proper machines.

    • ewenger
      ewenger commented
      Editing a comment
      Ok, finally had another moment to read in detail. This is really gold, level3ninja! Thank you! It really shows how much MUCH more thing I can learn from machine's aspect.

      What stuck out to me the most is the consistent "curve vs flat line" for the variables you mentioned. I can imagine that is probably one of the hardest to nail down. I think "curve" on its own is on another dimension which can't be set by just 1 number (e.g. "9" bar pressure). It's like a variable within another variable. E.g. the goal is to hit 9 bar, but how quickly it needs to or can hit that 9 bar? Not sure if that's a thing....but just trying to understand the concept here.

      In regards to John Buckman, yes, I am very aware of his coffee machine. I think Decent's approach is to create a machine to include as many controllable (by the machine) variables as possible, so then it's up to the user to explore the infinite amount of possibilities. A bit of a side note, but I quite admire and adore that man. I left a couple of messages on their Youtube channel about their machine and emailed him about their latest Decent Scale. Initially I didn't expect anyone would respond, but guess what, that brilliant man himself responded me within "minutes" (no joke) to my questions and suggestions on a Saturday night....It really shows how he is genuinely passionate about his craft, I really appreciate someone like him.

      Anyway....in an ideal world, I would love to own both Decent (for the learning/exploring experience) and Linea Mini Espresso (classic look & almost textbook perfect functions and easy to use) at the same time. I think owning the two machine will teach me very two different things as I believe they are built with two very different philosophies.

  • #8
    As others have alluded to ease of use is a big factor and the single biggest difference in my opinion when it comes to user experience.

    Comment


    • #9
      The development of espresso machines has come from the top down and from the bottom up...down from commercial and up from Harvey Norman.

      I think if Espresso were invented now it would probably look quite different. A rotary pump for instance is totally commercial but then a vibe pump is definitely Harvey Norman, although both work well.

      I think being able to buy and keep a machine a lifetime and in good order is what attracts me to my Wega and similar machines. Stainless Steel that will look as good in 20 years as it does now, and parts availability for when my rotary pump or boiler dies in 20 years time is critical and servicing to maintain that machine.

      My Bezzera BZ40P was 21 years old when I sold it and it still looked great. I needed to replace the boiler but didn't but replaced the rotary pump for sale as it had seized. If I had spent a bit more I could still have that machine now and it would be working great. I think the new 4.5L boiler was about $400 and was available.

      The fewer electronics in a machine the better too. Electronics are something that may not age well and might be a challenge to source in a few decades.

      I take the long view of ownership. I love the way it looks in the Kitchen and I don't have to upgrade regularly like with my iPhone. Something to cherish, enjoy and keep for many years.

      Comment


      • Budgiesmuggler
        Budgiesmuggler commented
        Editing a comment
        Incidentally, decent espresso issues a vibe pump because they more quickly adapt to pressure change. So one isn’t always better, it depends on what you want to do with it

    • #10
      My espresso journey started with a destination in mind: to get the best result in the cup. And to achieve that objective I bought machines with better features. I'm still in pursuit of that objective but I've come to enjoy the journey much more. From buying the green beans, to roasting, to grinding, puck prep and of course the pleasure of using the espresso machine itself.

      To the end, I'm willing to part with more money, not just in pursuit of a better espresso, but also to enhance the experience of the journey. Hence my lever machine sitting alongside the Decent and two hand grinders to complement the EG-1.

      What I love about the Italians is the value they place on beauty. It's not that I don't value it, but I've generally valued function over form. Lately my appreciation for the form is such that while I don't want to compromise what's in the cup, I want things that look beautiful as well as being functional and I want to enjoy using the device, whatever it may be.

      So for me, some of the justification for higher priced devices is how it looks and feels, in addition to the result. If it were only about getting the "best bang espresso for the bucks", I may have been content to settle down for life with my Breville dual boiler and the Breville Smart Pro grinder.

      As it is .... Decent ... EG-1 ... Valexia ... Kinu etc .. . etc.

      Comment


      • #11
        Originally posted by ewenger View Post
        [...] I also read and watched information about how to pull a great espresso shot. From what I heard so far, the most important contributing factor for pulling a great shot is brew temperature, water flow rate and brew pressure and I didn't hear many things else.

        You left out grind quality. In my experience, the quality of the grind (and hence the grinder) is critical. You can easily produce a great shot from a good grinder and a $500 thermoblock appliance, but with a mediocre grinder, even a $5000 dream machine will be limited to producing mediocre results.

        Indeed, I had a mediocre coffee from a machine that probably cost more than $10,000 just the other night. I was in a cafe. But I was not surprised. It's happened many times before, and undoubtedly will happen again!

        So, in short, an expensive coffee machine is neither necessary nor sufficient to guarantee a good shot. But a _grinder_ --- now that's a different story.

        Comment


        • Budgiesmuggler
          Budgiesmuggler commented
          Editing a comment
          Watch some
          Of the James Hoffman reviews esp those on cheap espresso machines.
      Working...
      X