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What really allows a more expensive espresso machine makes better espresso?

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  • Budgiesmuggler
    commented on 's reply
    Incidentally, decent espresso issues a vibe pump because they more quickly adapt to pressure change. So one isn’t always better, it depends on what you want to do with it

  • Budgiesmuggler
    commented on 's reply
    Watch some
    Of the James Hoffman reviews esp those on cheap espresso machines.

  • LatteLarry
    replied
    Originally posted by ewenger View Post
    [...] I also read and watched information about how to pull a great espresso shot. From what I heard so far, the most important contributing factor for pulling a great shot is brew temperature, water flow rate and brew pressure and I didn't hear many things else.

    You left out grind quality. In my experience, the quality of the grind (and hence the grinder) is critical. You can easily produce a great shot from a good grinder and a $500 thermoblock appliance, but with a mediocre grinder, even a $5000 dream machine will be limited to producing mediocre results.

    Indeed, I had a mediocre coffee from a machine that probably cost more than $10,000 just the other night. I was in a cafe. But I was not surprised. It's happened many times before, and undoubtedly will happen again!

    So, in short, an expensive coffee machine is neither necessary nor sufficient to guarantee a good shot. But a _grinder_ --- now that's a different story.

    Leave a comment:


  • tompoland
    replied
    My espresso journey started with a destination in mind: to get the best result in the cup. And to achieve that objective I bought machines with better features. I'm still in pursuit of that objective but I've come to enjoy the journey much more. From buying the green beans, to roasting, to grinding, puck prep and of course the pleasure of using the espresso machine itself.

    To the end, I'm willing to part with more money, not just in pursuit of a better espresso, but also to enhance the experience of the journey. Hence my lever machine sitting alongside the Decent and two hand grinders to complement the EG-1.

    What I love about the Italians is the value they place on beauty. It's not that I don't value it, but I've generally valued function over form. Lately my appreciation for the form is such that while I don't want to compromise what's in the cup, I want things that look beautiful as well as being functional and I want to enjoy using the device, whatever it may be.

    So for me, some of the justification for higher priced devices is how it looks and feels, in addition to the result. If it were only about getting the "best bang espresso for the bucks", I may have been content to settle down for life with my Breville dual boiler and the Breville Smart Pro grinder.

    As it is .... Decent ... EG-1 ... Valexia ... Kinu etc .. . etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • wattgn
    replied
    The development of espresso machines has come from the top down and from the bottom up...down from commercial and up from Harvey Norman.

    I think if Espresso were invented now it would probably look quite different. A rotary pump for instance is totally commercial but then a vibe pump is definitely Harvey Norman, although both work well.

    I think being able to buy and keep a machine a lifetime and in good order is what attracts me to my Wega and similar machines. Stainless Steel that will look as good in 20 years as it does now, and parts availability for when my rotary pump or boiler dies in 20 years time is critical and servicing to maintain that machine.

    My Bezzera BZ40P was 21 years old when I sold it and it still looked great. I needed to replace the boiler but didn't but replaced the rotary pump for sale as it had seized. If I had spent a bit more I could still have that machine now and it would be working great. I think the new 4.5L boiler was about $400 and was available.

    The fewer electronics in a machine the better too. Electronics are something that may not age well and might be a challenge to source in a few decades.

    I take the long view of ownership. I love the way it looks in the Kitchen and I don't have to upgrade regularly like with my iPhone. Something to cherish, enjoy and keep for many years.

    Leave a comment:


  • amberale
    commented on 's reply
    I had a Gaggia Classic from about 1998 to 2020 when I bit the bullet and upgraded to a DB, flow control, rotary pump.
    I can make great espresso on a pimped Gaggia but life is short and technology has advanced in leaps and bounds.

  • ewenger
    commented on 's reply
    Yep agree on all points here. And stability and consistency are definitely the repeated variables I have gathered here so far then it's the most advance variable like what level3ninja mentioned below. Thanks! Appreciated the input!

  • ewenger
    commented on 's reply
    Ok, finally had another moment to read in detail. This is really gold, level3ninja! Thank you! It really shows how much MUCH more thing I can learn from machine's aspect.

    What stuck out to me the most is the consistent "curve vs flat line" for the variables you mentioned. I can imagine that is probably one of the hardest to nail down. I think "curve" on its own is on another dimension which can't be set by just 1 number (e.g. "9" bar pressure). It's like a variable within another variable. E.g. the goal is to hit 9 bar, but how quickly it needs to or can hit that 9 bar? Not sure if that's a thing....but just trying to understand the concept here.

    In regards to John Buckman, yes, I am very aware of his coffee machine. I think Decent's approach is to create a machine to include as many controllable (by the machine) variables as possible, so then it's up to the user to explore the infinite amount of possibilities. A bit of a side note, but I quite admire and adore that man. I left a couple of messages on their Youtube channel about their machine and emailed him about their latest Decent Scale. Initially I didn't expect anyone would respond, but guess what, that brilliant man himself responded me within "minutes" (no joke) to my questions and suggestions on a Saturday night....It really shows how he is genuinely passionate about his craft, I really appreciate someone like him.

    Anyway....in an ideal world, I would love to own both Decent (for the learning/exploring experience) and Linea Mini Espresso (classic look & almost textbook perfect functions and easy to use) at the same time. I think owning the two machine will teach me very two different things as I believe they are built with two very different philosophies.

  • ewenger
    commented on 's reply
    lol~and here I am thinking it's some acronym standing for a golden rules of legendary brewing variables ha! Maybe we should make one...

  • ewenger
    commented on 's reply
    Got it, yes, absolutely agree on the workflow. I also pay fair bit of attention to UX in anything and I value that aspect as well.

    I used to own a Gaggia Classic Pro. It's simple to use for sure, but it requires some practice to get the temperature surfing technique right to only get a ballpark desirable temp level. It's also a little frustrating knowing that it need some "hack" to get the steaming strong enough to froth milk well enough. It can surely pull great shots and froth finely, but the effort is there to be put in before you can get a good result. Not exactly what I want to encounter every morning esp during fast pace workdays..

  • level3ninja
    commented on 's reply
    tompoland yeah he wanted to make a machine where you push a button and the machine just makes good coffee. He went around to loads of coffee experts and asked what the machine needs to do and the only consensus he got was that we really don't know, we need to know what's going on, what's actually physically happening, not just what we think is happening. So he built that machine first. Maybe in 10 years we'll know, but will he be able to build a $1k machine to do it? My understanding is the Default Profile is probably the best if you were only going to have one profile, but he couldn't reduce the cost of the machine by much more than the tablet at the moment and doesn't want to invest the R&D time and money into figuring out how to make a 1 hit wonder version when he's only just keeping up with demand on the proper machines.

  • tompoland
    commented on 's reply
    Terrific post thanks level3ninja, learnt a lot including the fact that John Buckman thought he could create a decent machine for under 1,000 and ended up closer to 5,000. Very interesting, thanks.

  • amberale
    commented on 's reply
    No mate, we had no power, (no electricity) all day and I could only heat water on an old gas camp stove.
    The Bianca is electric, the Baby is not.
    Workflow or ease of use is definitely “worth’ something to me.
    I can cope with pre-warming baskets, pulling a shot into one cup then pouring that into another etc for one drink but if I have multiple coffees to make the fully plumbed in double boiler makes the whole process simple.

  • amberale
    commented on 's reply
    I reckon “You Get What You Pay For”

  • ewenger
    commented on 's reply
    Hiya dischucker, thanks for the comment, probably a silly question here. I am guessing YGWYPF stands for many brewing related variables, but would you be able to let me know what they are all short for? Thanks in advance!!!!
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