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  • Shot volume on levers?

    Hi,

    I am thinking about switching to a lever machine from a ECM Tecknika IV,
    but I have been reading about lever machines (Pavoni, Elecktra) not be able to produce the volume
    to produce a double shot like a pump machine.

    Not sure if this is due to the smaller portafilter sizes they seem to work with?


    I will normally make a 2 coffees in one go and would like to continue that.

    Which levers can push out 60ml comfortably?

    Thanks all


  • #2
    I have owned two La Pavoni's and now have a Profitec Pro 800.

    Reckon you would struggle to get 60ml out. YOu can do what's known as the 'Fellini' manoeuvre where you lower the lever about halfway down or so and then raise it all the way back up and then pull the shot.
    It forces more water into the puck and grouphead as a whole. It also allows for a slightly better preinfusion (at least I think so) than the traditional raise and lower.
    It does take a bit of practice to get right, but so does using a La Pavoni as a whole anyway. Reckon you could find a few youtube videos on the process pretty easy.

    Comment


    • WhatEverBeansNecessary
      WhatEverBeansNecessary commented
      Editing a comment
      From memory I think you could probably get out 50g or so easy enough.
      But having said that you MIGHT be able to get more out with a naked portafilter and a larger basket. You can get a 20g basket I think which might squeeze out 60g. The triple basket won't fit in a standard portafilter as it is too tall. Never tried personally however.

  • #3
    I would second WBN comments. The amount out is due to the swept volume of the piston, so the portafilter size is only one of the factors (the portafilter size determines diameter of the piston to some degree, it is also how far the piston moves. I have a Valexia Leva and 40 to 50 grams is possible on it but I feel trying to get 60 out is trying to make the machine fit your parameters rather than have the machine work within it's best range. I think a commercial lever like Profitec 800, Bosco, Alex Leva would give the best chance of getting close to what you want rather than a smaller lever. If the 60ml is an absolutely rigid requirement for you it may turn out a lever isn't the best for you

    Comment


    • #4
      Originally posted by tyler_durdan View Post
      Hi,
      I will normally make a 2 coffees in one go and would like to continue that.
      Which levers can push out 60ml comfortably?
      Thanks all
      What style of finished beverage do you like to make with the split espresso's Tyler?

      Reason I ask is that as you gain more shot yield - lets say a 20g dose in Vs 50g out, then comparing that taste wise to say 60g out, the peak flavours produced from the bean / roast / grind / recipe of the espresso shot will diminish towards other highlights / low lights as you add more time / volume to the espresso shot produced.
      Have you maybe tried a different shot with your current setup ?
      As a trial taste experiment.
      Note I underlined finished beverage as you can effect the final flavour if drinking say a long black and of course any of the whites.

      GL. Encourage you to report back your findings for others here to read.

      Comment


      • #5
        Depends on your grind size. Finer grind = less volume. But I have routinely poured 50g from levers.

        Comment


        • #6
          I've never really thought much about it, but my standard recipe on my Alex Leva yields 40g out, with quite a bit more overflow. I've never thought to catch and weigh the additional output, but I'd estimate at least 10g if not close to 20...I do run quite a long pre-infusion which I guess could add a few mL if the entire puck is saturated, vs just filling the chamber and starting the shot?

          Comment


          • #7
            Thanks all

            I am using an 18gr VST basket with 18gr coffee

            I make 2 flat whites at a time (190ml cups) and the total shot
            is probably between 50-60ml I am guessing.

            If you have a lever machine do you have to ideally make them one at
            a time to achieve the same thing?

            I have noticed most of the lever reviews and videos are with
            a naked portafilter into one cup only.

            Is this because one shot (25-30ml) at a time is where they shine?

            Comment


            • WhatEverBeansNecessary
              WhatEverBeansNecessary commented
              Editing a comment
              In a nutshell yes - I do think that 25-30ml mark has always been around the best on the la pavoni for my tastes and the amount I normally dose.
              But that isn't to say you don't prefer a longer shot or a higher dose etc.

              What you are looking at the la pavoni and the Elektra have significantly smaller baskets than for instance my profitec pro 800 or Matt's Alex Leva.

              There is no reason you can't do two shots into one cup and this isn't uncommon for the older style espresso, particularly in Italy where these machines were mostly made and popular 'back in the day'.
              Modern espresso tends to be a more stock standard 30-40ml ish shot. But again it's all preference for taste, there is no one who can say an exact 35ml shot is the best there is. It's all subjective to your taste.

              I personally don't think you will really tell much difference between a 50ml shot and a 60ml shot on a la pavoni in milk. But if you can, get down to a site sponsor who sells these machines and they might let you have a play and help you answer some of these questions in person too. There are a lot of good things about these machines and some big negatives too., Personally I wouldn't be comfortable having one around young children as the boilers get super hot. There is a steep learning curve to use one which means anyone else using the machine needs to put in a bit of time to practice too. They aren't really for the 'I just want a coffee at 6am before work' group. It's a hobby as well as a way to get a caffeine fix IMHO.

          • #8
            Hello Tyler,

            Echoing what others have said here and this reflects our experience with La Pavoni levers , and all levers in general.

            The shot volume is predominately governed by the size of the piston chamber.
            With the La Pavoni that will limit you to at best 40 - 45 ml.

            The "Fellini" move may get you more volume although I am not a big fan of that technique.

            Where the La Pavoni excells is very high yeild 30ml shots, when you get it right they are truely magnificent.

            If you are in Melbourne you are welcome to come into our show room and look at them in person.
            https://www.casaespresso.com.au/dome...la-pavoni.html

            Cheers

            Antony
            03 9532 1517
            www.casaespresso.com.au

            Comment


            • #9
              Thanks again all.

              All of my espresso making history at home has been
              making 2 coffees at a time (Breville dual boiler then ECM Tecknika)
              for my wife and myself daily.

              So my preference is probably skewed that way but I am
              not wedded to it

              Should I be rethinking this and consider pulling one shot at a time
              on a lever if the end result is better?

              Comment


              • tompoland
                tompoland commented
                Editing a comment
                Not all all. Pouring two shots with a lever is quite do-able. Don't think you need abandon the two cup pour, especially if you are investing in a larger lever like one of @casaespresso Izzos. Most of us lever freaks use a naked portafilter but that's just so we can see the quality of the pour. I have one on my non lever machine as well.

            • #10
              Make 2 great singles rather than 2 average singles from a double. You'll never look back

              Comment


              • #11
                Tyler you own a ECM Tecknika IV, I would suggest a suitable replacement would be a prosumer lever to give effortless use without temp surfing, etc. If you get one of those you have the option of both ways, a double or single. I suggest try both and see which formula you like. I use a 18-19 gram dose for a 35-40 grams output as it suits my taste, yours may be different. See which you prefer.

                The Izzo Alex Leva and Profitec 800 are two prosumer machines which are well supported in Australia and supplied by sponsors.

                Nice Valexia Leva (Alex Leva in a fancier case) in the for sale section at a saving - https://coffeesnobs.com.au/forum/mar...w-october-2021

                Comment


                • 338
                  338 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Or buy a. La Pavoni which are very well priced at the moment to scratch the Lever itch and keep the Technika. Use the Pavoni on the weekends when time isn't of the essence.

              • #12
                Thanks
                Any opinions on the Pavoni models vs the Elektra models?

                Comment


                • #13
                  The Electra makes beautiful softer tasting coffee, but it's a spring lever and not as flexible as a direct lever, you can't focus your technique to extract all the available tastes in the beans during a pour.
                  Adding springs is a bit like driving a 911 verses a modern Porche, (you loose feel and control).
                  You should split your 60 ml extraction into two seperate 30 ml extractions, (don't mix them).
                  Taste both extractions.
                  Now throw the second one away and never try to get 60ml out of 18g again, (smiley face).
                  Or if for some reason you like part of the second extraction, split the second one again and try and figure out where it becomes detrimental to the rest of the coffee.
                  Levers are all harder to use, (riding a bike is harder).
                  The underlying message you get from all lever discussions is that with a bit of experience they simply make better coffee.
                  The typically smaller diameter and deeper baskets may be part of their secret as this must effect the extraction profile.
                  You sound like you're ready for the next step.
                  Not a lot can go wrong with a lever, do your homework, be patient, wait till the right one comes along on the used market.









                  Comment


                  • #14
                    Thanks

                    Do spring loaded levers have some sort of secret sauce as it creates
                    its unique profile while pulling a shot?

                    Just wondering if this is more in line with the pressure profile from
                    lever machines back in the 60s which helped create the whole espresso movement?

                    I have read that the initial pressure is lower (5-6 bar)and it slowly reduces as the
                    shot ends and this is where it may shine

                    Or is it better to have control over the entire shot with a manual lever?

                    Comment


                    • WhatEverBeansNecessary
                      WhatEverBeansNecessary commented
                      Editing a comment
                      No secrets. A spring by nature offers more resistance when fully compressed (at the beginning of the shot) than when almost fully decompressed (at the end of the shot).

                      Levers were the 'original' espresso machine but spring and manual levers came to be at about the same time (I believe the manual lever slightly earlier, but not by much).

                      The 'problem' with manual levers is the repeatability. You are using all muscle memory, rather than a spring which has the same profile. But there are some positives too, you can indeed control the pressure through the shot - it's just as repeatable.
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