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  • Confused about E61 Groups

    Hello Everyone,

    Been checking out different machines and it seems most contain an E61 Group of some type, even those machines in the $4000 - $5000 range. i just don't understand why modern machines are using these groups. The set extraction temperatures, like 93, have no relationship to what you might be getting at the group as, as far as I can tell, this temperature is just a calculated temperature and not the actual temperature at the group. Some machines even employ conversion tables from the boiler set temperature so you can hopefully get the right group temperature.

    In this modern age surely we can do better then using a 1961 design. Yes there are PID heated and saturated groups but they are rarely used, and the E61 seems to be the main player.

    Is it just money, ease of parts, easier repair and the hell with doing something better?

    I would be interested in your thoughts. Maybe I just have it all wrong.

    TIA

  • #2
    I'm not sure. But when i purchased my e61 i knew that this was something to take note of and hence always did a pre flush of hot water to the group head to hasten the warming of my portafilter and group head.
    Right now the serviceability and resources for e61 are readily available and thought it was a good reason to stick.
    I think with Decent in the mix the game will change in this scene and people may move towards customised profiling. I have to admit i'm not completely sure on how Decent works its sounds very futuristic and fancy, but its is the biggest move in the prosumer scene.

    Comment


    • #3
      The E61 has cult status but it also has runs on the board for reliability and consistency ( even if a few workarounds or calculations are needed). Probably its biggest plus (after group head temp stability ) is its universal acceptance, almost making a 58mm portafilter a default size. There are some excellent examples of non E61 groups as well as some newer quick heat up time machines for some people who want Rock solid temps but don't want a XXX minute warm up. Sometimes old things get replaced by newer and better things , sometimes they get superceded by stuff that just isn't as good as the original.

      I think they are an example of a commercial starting point to a home crossover, whereas now home starting point is also at the fore.

      So I love the fact that a E61 group could still be called a benchmark and I love the fact that other 'model/ or interpretations can also measure up ( or improve)

      Comment


      • gregeeh
        gregeeh commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes I get it FNQ, I really do, but the Ford Falcon GT-HO Phase III also has cult status but we have moved on and improved it. But at the end of the day temperature stability and accuracy at the coffee puck is all what it's about, and really the 1961 E61 has surely seen its days. Surely in 2022 we can do better. And, I'm talking pro-consumer machines and not commerical.

        Is the cult so much entrenched that manufacturers are not looking elsewhere to give the buyer a better product? Maybe that is the answer...

      • tompoland
        tompoland commented
        Editing a comment
        True true re the GT-HO but continuing on the car theme, most new vehicles are still using a variation of the original internal combustion engine that good old John Stevens produced in 1798. Thankfully EVs are becoming more popular but still 224 odd years is not a bad run. Maybe we'll still be using the E61 in 2185?

    • #4
      This is covering a lot of territory, however hopefully this answers a couple of your questions;

      1. PID - PID are an electronic unit that switches on/off boiler element based on readings from a temperature probe. They are used in E61 and non-E61 machines. They often have an offset which should mean they set the group temperature very accurately for single and dual boiler machines (not heat exchanger machines). This offset depends on calibration, ambient temperature, elevation and a number of other factors as to how close the actual boiler temperature (and E61 group temperature) are.
      2. E61 group heating - E61 groups are heated by a thermo syphon loop of water from the brew boiler. Due to the slow flow of this loop and 4.5kg brass in the group this take 30-45 minutes to fully heat up. E61 groups then provide good temp stability due to the thermal mass (* heat exchanger machines, more below).
      3. Heat Exchange (Hx) E61 machines - Hx machines have a single large boiler with a heat exchanger tube inside which take the boiler temp down to around 93 degrees. This might be what you are getting at here with the offset. A PID will regulate the steam temperature and then the heat exchanger will reduce the temperature to roughly 93 degrees.

      If you want a few good models to checkout with non E61 groups, Bezzera did a variant group based on E61 which is heated in the DUO and Matrix models which I think it has two group heating elements and is PID controlled. The Lelit Elizabeth is another excellent machine which is a Dual Boiler PID. But outside those there aren't many non-E61 prosumer machines with saturated groups until you look at Linea Mini, GS3 or Rocket R91 (unless I missed some). Another option is the Breville BES 920 which has excellent temp control but is not built with commercial parts and is prob going to last 5-10 years max. At the other end of the scale is the Decent which is around 6-7k landed which has full control of temperature along with flow and pressure.

      Comment


      • tompoland
        tompoland commented
        Editing a comment
        Very helpful thanks. Upgrades my scant knowledge.

    • #5
      Greg, besides the age of the design, what is the main problem you see with the E61 grouphead?

      I use a hammer which is designed just like my great-grandfathers but it does an excellent job of putting just a few nails in to unknown nice timber, far better than a nail gun. Of course a nail gun has it's place.

      The worst issue is heat up time, but then there are heated groups

      4.5 kg of brass does a pretty good job of keeping 50ml of liquid temperature stable, it is just physics. Then again you could improve that, use 9kg of brass like in a commercial lever!

      Comment


      • #6
        Originally posted by 338 View Post
        Greg, besides the age of the design, what is the main problem you see with the E61 grouphead?

        I use a hammer which is designed just like my great-grandfathers but it does an excellent job of putting just a few nails in to unknown nice timber, far better than a nail gun. Of course a nail gun has it's place.

        The worst issue is heat up time, but then there are heated groups

        4.5 kg of brass does a pretty good job of keeping 50ml of liquid temperature stable, it is just physics. Then again you could improve that, use 9kg of brass like in a commercial lever!

        There are more modern groups that:
        - are more temperature stable,
        - heat up quicker
        - use less energy

        it takes a lot of time and energy to heat an e61 group.
        Eg the decent group has a heat up time of under 5 mins and is more stable.

        so yeah an e61 is good, but it’s not best at anything




        Comment


        • amberale
          amberale commented
          Editing a comment
          The problem 338 is that folks don't want nails anymore.
          Third wave fasteners(screws) are super light weight with much more eye appeal.
          You can't even really call them a fastener any more, they are more like an attachment satisfaction agent.
          Your hammer may be able to brutalise them into a hole but not with the finesse of a sexy rechargeable tek screw driver.

          Tongue firmly in cheek.

        • Budgiesmuggler
          Budgiesmuggler commented
          Editing a comment
          338 he asked for issues with the e61, I raised them. He didn’t ask if it’s worth buying if so I would have given a different answer.

          I could also have pointed out that the breville group head is more stable than an e61, Decent was just one example.

        • 338
          338 commented
          Editing a comment
          Agree, Budgie, plenty of valid reasons not to choose an E61 machine, I just don't think age of design is one of them.

      • #7
        Hello Everyone,

        Thanks for all your input and thoughts it's appreciated, however I think most are missing my point.

        Yes the E61 is an old design, and has plenty of reasons not to use it, but my question is "Why are we still using it when there is much better technology out there today?" Is it a cult as FNQ mentioned? Is the E61 what users want and/or prefer? Is it cost? Is it ease of maintenance? Or something else?

        As we all know there are plenty of other designs out there that are more temperature stable, heat up quicker and probably don't cost anymore to manufacture. Speaking of cost, take the Bezzera Duo as an example, it's available in both dual PID heated group with volumetric (DE) and the E61 group (MN) versions. AB is selling them both for only a few hundred dollars difference and considering the DE also has volumetric and the associated electronics and flowmeter I doubt the dual heated PID group is more expensive to produce.

        So I ask again, why are manufacturers continuing to produce machines with E61 groups when there are better options out there? Surely prosumer/domestic/home users want a machine that is more temperature stable and most of all heats up quicker.

        Greg

        Comment


        • #8
          It looks good.

          Comment


          • gregeeh
            gregeeh commented
            Editing a comment
            338 - That would not surprise me. There are plenty of us that judge a book by its cover

        • #9
          I'm only going to speak from my perspective again.
          when I researched my next machine. It was a safer investment. As most reviewed and tested machines were all based of the e61 model.
          I'll use my benchmarks for example. Almost everyone recommends ECM synchronika Technika. Profitec 600 or 700 when looking at prosumer level machines. This guided what machines I was going in on.
          I had criteria for what machine I wanted, I guess group head wasn't one as I didn't see it as important if a variable as things like having dual pid or having a rotary pump or dual boiler. Those were something that seemed like important variables in having a good brew.

          Maybe it's ignorance, maybe it's unawareness but how a group head was heating didn't play a part in my decision as long as the output of the coffee was great.

          The e61 is a reliable work horse which has been tried and tested and there are so many articles/ reviews of e61 based machines that it's always going to be a safe investment.
          Until other types become more mainstream, people's hard earn dollars would go with what has been reviewed and easily available.

          I went from a dual boiler Breville to my e61 and can say that I have no regrets. So there must be something in that old e61 design that still contributes to my nicer coffees now... Or it might just be my grinder is that much better, who knows.

          Comment


          • Caffeinator
            Caffeinator commented
            Editing a comment
            Agreed!

            Sometimes it's a case of if it ain't broke, dun fix it. Pop a Scace device on a well-calibrated e-61 and you find that 5kg of brass is not that keen to to change temperature. In dual boiler, the group of an Alex Duetto is hot and stable in 15 minutes which is class-leading as fast as far as I know.

            These is a thing about simplicity, reliability and easily obtainable parts. Any competent tech and plenty of CS'ers can service an e-61 group in 20 minutes with cheap parts. Start playing with fare rarer proprietary bits and the repair bills escalate rapidly.

        • #10
          Still being light hearted here, but also showing good design lasts. Depending on sources the late 1700's saw the patent of a mill to grind coffee and in the early 1800's an electric grinder was patented. In the last little while ( highly technical aging term) evolution of the burrs and workflow have occurred but basically are we still running around in GTO Phase IVs. ??

          Off Topic now -By the way, I think the reason we are not all still driving Phase 4s, is that they found out driving them 270 kms an hour down conrod straight with rear drum brakes that gave up after 4 laps wasn't conducive to longevity. ( and I can't afford them)

          Comment


          • #11
            The other perspective I think are the coffee brand / manufacturers. I think it comes down to R&D, production costs and economies of scale.

            1. R&D cost - The cost to design and manufacture a new mid-high end group is high, like car maker building a new car platform. Not many companies are at a big enough scale especially in the domestic market to invest big amounts of money in this. Bezzera did with their propriety group and while it is technically superior to E61 with regards to heatup time and stability there are bugger all in terms of volume is Australia of DUO/Matrix (just my observation, have only seen 1-2 come up second hand in 10+ years), I would say they would be still be behind in terms of recouping their R&D cost.
            2. Consumer demand / Economies of scales - Plenty of people are buying mid level E61 machines, so the bigger companies keep pumping them out and the smaller spin offs keep producing E61 machines. The number of units of the higher level group designs would probably be say 1% or less of the more common E61 group.
            3. Maintenance - Pretty much any coffee business who services machines will be familiar with E61 machines and service is easy to find. They are low complexity as they are mechanical with valves and springs and don't have any electronic parts.
            4. Production cost - The group is a huge hunk of metal but must be pretty cost effective to produce and build a machine around.
            5. Commercial designs - The other aspect is that some of the better group designs are coupled with the normal components of a full commercial machine and they are higher specs to cope with a full commercial load. Good example of this being Linea Mini, this is a single group based off a full commercial machine.

            I recently upgraded to a second hand ECM Syncronika too recently by coincidence and I was looking at dual boiler PID machines preferably with a rotary pump. If budget was no constraint I would have possibly looked at Decent, Linea Mini, GS3, R91, Eagle 1 Prima. With the exception of the Bezzera group most of the single group machines with new more sophisticated group designs are bumping price up to the next bracket 7-10k or higher. Again I think this reflects the premium you you pay for lower volumes machines with higher levels of R&D investment for coffee machine manufacturers.

            Comment


            • gregeeh
              gregeeh commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks for your input appreciated. Understand what you are saying and you are probably correct in all respects. Very surprised on your statement about bugger all DUO/Matrix in Australia, as I thought there would have been more.

              Thanks again.

            • roosterben
              roosterben commented
              Editing a comment
              Just my incremental observations, as I have saved searches for coffee machines running on EvalBay, Gumtree, marketplace I have only ever seen a couple for sale. Whilst over the same period other brands like Expobar/Isomac/VBM/ECM/Rocket/Profitec would be in the hundreds to thousands so either there aren't many out there or they are so good no one is selling them. Although generally you don't see as many dual boilers machines turnover as I think for many they are an end game coffee machine.

              I think the DUO/Matrix are excellent machines and there are a couple of good owners threads on here.

          • #12
            Gregeeh, I understand where you are coming from.
            I know that DaveC champions using solenoids on E61instead of mechanical switches to miminise maintenance.
            There are a few non-E61 saturated groups out there but they are mostly around 10k aud.
            I am happy with my E61 so far as thermal stability and there is a theory that the declining temperature profile is beneficial.

            Where I am bemused is the small lever market where the main players have done nothing to improve their very poor thermal stability.
            Yes, their fans have work-arounds to be able to make good to (occasionally) great coffee but the parent companies have done nada for decades.
            They are about to be challenged by the Argos and (one day maybe) the mini Londinium.
            DaveC has also hinted that there may be another modern small lever in development.

            Comment


            • Barry O'Speedwagon
              Barry O'Speedwagon commented
              Editing a comment
              I can assure you that the coffee produced regularly and with zero fuss from my Cremina is a lot better than 'good' (and consistently a little better than all of my previous/other machines...Diadema Reale, Achille). They work beautifully (for purposes similar to mine)....they're just overpriced.

            • roosterben
              roosterben commented
              Editing a comment
              I think you are on the money Amberale around lack of innovation. The only real big innovation with E61 machines (and other prosumers) has been in pressure profiling and the bigger manufacturers were mostly last to the party. It was the smaller disruptors like Vesuvius, Lelit, Decent and accessory companies like Coffee Sensor who led the market. The ECM and Profitec flow control devices came much later once there was a proven trend/demand.

              Like the single dosing / Niche Zero disruptor, home grinders really had a dull patch of the same burr sets being recycled into different forms and factors. Then like it or not the Niche created a new market for single dosing and the big manufacturers took 3-4 years to catch on. The Eureka Mignon Oro only came out in the last year or so.

              Where I think we have seen some innovation stuff is manual espresso machines like Wacaco Pico/Nanopresso, Robot, Flair and 5-6 other companies building small manual espresso machines.

              It seems to me we need to thank the smaller companies like Lelit, Niche, Vesuvius, Decent and as you mentioned Argos espresso for disrupting the market. Once they have built a market for new cutting edge features eventually the bigger companies catch up and start slowly dropping these features into the mainstream machines.

            • Budgiesmuggler
              Budgiesmuggler commented
              Editing a comment
              Great comments roosterben and when those big manufacturers have tried to put in new features it often feels like an fart thought - like the Crem - having some funny thing hang out the side for pressure profiling.

              Some of the podcasts from John at Decent are interesting. He says when we was building the machine he asked people what they want, and was told they want a pressure profiling machine. Of course when they came to build it with non-coffee engineers, they pointed out it’s a bit silly to measure line pressure like other machines code. It’s pressure st the puck that matters, so he just built a machine that could do anything given no one could tell him what they wanted.

              But not just goes to show that the big manufacturers had been building machines the same way for so long. There wasn’t a lot of innovation. There were certain facts that were accepted as gospel (and largely still are - like flow profiling on a manual machine).

          • #13
            Hello again everyone,

            Once again everyone has given great comments and reasons why the E61 seems to be the "norm". This is off-topic but I'll ask anyhow. What machine can I purchase for under $4K with DB, Shot timer, PID temp controls for both boilers, pre-infusion (via tank) and most importantly be ready to pull a shot in around 10 minutes. I can only think of the BDB.

            Thoughts?

            Comment


            • roosterben
              roosterben commented
              Editing a comment
              Rancilio Silvia Pro, Lelit Elizabeth V2/V3, Profitec Pro 300 are the only ones I can think of.

            • gregeeh
              gregeeh commented
              Editing a comment
              roosterben - Are you sure the Rancilio Silvia Pro & Profitec Pro 300 have pre-infusion via the tank?

            • roosterben
              roosterben commented
              Editing a comment
              Hmm nope but apparently the Silvia Pro X does and it is available for 3k (didn't even know this was a thing);

              Here it is from sponsor Alternative Brewing;
              https://alternativebrewing.com.au/pr...41368088281287

              Profitec Pro 300 doesn't have pre-infusion so might have to scratch that one off your shortlist.

              Founder another option
              https://alternativebrewing.com.au/pr...coffee-machine
              Last edited by roosterben; 2 August 2022, 05:42 PM. Reason: Added another machine

          • #14
            Not really adding to the conversation but e61s are very shiny and pretty which is definately a big reason why they have stayed popular compared to machines that hide or shroud their groupheads or look like appliances.

            Comment


            • #15
              Agreed t0fu,

              For mine, the visual appeal of the e61's the retro design, proven reliability and the abundance of affordable parts and serviceability options were the main attraction and I suspect are for many others.

              Combine this head with (in my case) a solidly Italian-built machine and you have the basis for many years of quality, consistently brewed espresso...

              Comment


              • gregeeh
                gregeeh commented
                Editing a comment
                Dragster - I agree will all those points, however, for me, the big drawback with E61 is the time it takes to completely heat up.

                If I want a cup of espresso, I want it now and not in 30-40 mins time. Yes I can have a timer to turn on the machine at a set time and there are methods that are supposed to reduce the heating time. But it does not overcome situations where guests suddenly arrive expecting coffee or you just decide you want an espresso now.

                Plus there is now way I'm going to leave the machine on all day to cover a just in case I need to make coffee situation.

                As I said I agree with all your points but at the end of the day the E61 does not cut it for me.
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