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Confused about E61 Groups

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  • gregeeh
    commented on 's reply
    Dragster - I agree will all those points, however, for me, the big drawback with E61 is the time it takes to completely heat up.

    If I want a cup of espresso, I want it now and not in 30-40 mins time. Yes I can have a timer to turn on the machine at a set time and there are methods that are supposed to reduce the heating time. But it does not overcome situations where guests suddenly arrive expecting coffee or you just decide you want an espresso now.

    Plus there is now way I'm going to leave the machine on all day to cover a just in case I need to make coffee situation.

    As I said I agree with all your points but at the end of the day the E61 does not cut it for me.

  • Dragster
    replied
    Agreed t0fu,

    For mine, the visual appeal of the e61's the retro design, proven reliability and the abundance of affordable parts and serviceability options were the main attraction and I suspect are for many others.

    Combine this head with (in my case) a solidly Italian-built machine and you have the basis for many years of quality, consistently brewed espresso...

    Leave a comment:


  • Budgiesmuggler
    commented on 's reply
    Great comments roosterben and when those big manufacturers have tried to put in new features it often feels like an fart thought - like the Crem - having some funny thing hang out the side for pressure profiling.

    Some of the podcasts from John at Decent are interesting. He says when we was building the machine he asked people what they want, and was told they want a pressure profiling machine. Of course when they came to build it with non-coffee engineers, they pointed out it’s a bit silly to measure line pressure like other machines code. It’s pressure st the puck that matters, so he just built a machine that could do anything given no one could tell him what they wanted.

    But not just goes to show that the big manufacturers had been building machines the same way for so long. There wasn’t a lot of innovation. There were certain facts that were accepted as gospel (and largely still are - like flow profiling on a manual machine).

  • t0fu
    replied
    Not really adding to the conversation but e61s are very shiny and pretty which is definately a big reason why they have stayed popular compared to machines that hide or shroud their groupheads or look like appliances.

    Leave a comment:


  • roosterben
    commented on 's reply
    Hmm nope but apparently the Silvia Pro X does and it is available for 3k (didn't even know this was a thing);

    Here it is from sponsor Alternative Brewing;
    https://alternativebrewing.com.au/pr...41368088281287

    Profitec Pro 300 doesn't have pre-infusion so might have to scratch that one off your shortlist.

    Founder another option
    https://alternativebrewing.com.au/pr...coffee-machine
    Last edited by roosterben; 2 August 2022, 05:42 PM. Reason: Added another machine

  • gregeeh
    commented on 's reply
    roosterben - Are you sure the Rancilio Silvia Pro & Profitec Pro 300 have pre-infusion via the tank?

  • roosterben
    commented on 's reply
    Rancilio Silvia Pro, Lelit Elizabeth V2/V3, Profitec Pro 300 are the only ones I can think of.

  • gregeeh
    replied
    Hello again everyone,

    Once again everyone has given great comments and reasons why the E61 seems to be the "norm". This is off-topic but I'll ask anyhow. What machine can I purchase for under $4K with DB, Shot timer, PID temp controls for both boilers, pre-infusion (via tank) and most importantly be ready to pull a shot in around 10 minutes. I can only think of the BDB.

    Thoughts?

    Leave a comment:


  • roosterben
    commented on 's reply
    Just my incremental observations, as I have saved searches for coffee machines running on EvalBay, Gumtree, marketplace I have only ever seen a couple for sale. Whilst over the same period other brands like Expobar/Isomac/VBM/ECM/Rocket/Profitec would be in the hundreds to thousands so either there aren't many out there or they are so good no one is selling them. Although generally you don't see as many dual boilers machines turnover as I think for many they are an end game coffee machine.

    I think the DUO/Matrix are excellent machines and there are a couple of good owners threads on here.

  • roosterben
    commented on 's reply
    I think you are on the money Amberale around lack of innovation. The only real big innovation with E61 machines (and other prosumers) has been in pressure profiling and the bigger manufacturers were mostly last to the party. It was the smaller disruptors like Vesuvius, Lelit, Decent and accessory companies like Coffee Sensor who led the market. The ECM and Profitec flow control devices came much later once there was a proven trend/demand.

    Like the single dosing / Niche Zero disruptor, home grinders really had a dull patch of the same burr sets being recycled into different forms and factors. Then like it or not the Niche created a new market for single dosing and the big manufacturers took 3-4 years to catch on. The Eureka Mignon Oro only came out in the last year or so.

    Where I think we have seen some innovation stuff is manual espresso machines like Wacaco Pico/Nanopresso, Robot, Flair and 5-6 other companies building small manual espresso machines.

    It seems to me we need to thank the smaller companies like Lelit, Niche, Vesuvius, Decent and as you mentioned Argos espresso for disrupting the market. Once they have built a market for new cutting edge features eventually the bigger companies catch up and start slowly dropping these features into the mainstream machines.

  • gregeeh
    commented on 's reply
    Thanks for your input appreciated. Understand what you are saying and you are probably correct in all respects. Very surprised on your statement about bugger all DUO/Matrix in Australia, as I thought there would have been more.

    Thanks again.

  • Barry O'Speedwagon
    commented on 's reply
    I can assure you that the coffee produced regularly and with zero fuss from my Cremina is a lot better than 'good' (and consistently a little better than all of my previous/other machines...Diadema Reale, Achille). They work beautifully (for purposes similar to mine)....they're just overpriced.

  • amberale
    replied
    Gregeeh, I understand where you are coming from.
    I know that DaveC champions using solenoids on E61instead of mechanical switches to miminise maintenance.
    There are a few non-E61 saturated groups out there but they are mostly around 10k aud.
    I am happy with my E61 so far as thermal stability and there is a theory that the declining temperature profile is beneficial.

    Where I am bemused is the small lever market where the main players have done nothing to improve their very poor thermal stability.
    Yes, their fans have work-arounds to be able to make good to (occasionally) great coffee but the parent companies have done nada for decades.
    They are about to be challenged by the Argos and (one day maybe) the mini Londinium.
    DaveC has also hinted that there may be another modern small lever in development.

    Leave a comment:


  • roosterben
    replied
    The other perspective I think are the coffee brand / manufacturers. I think it comes down to R&D, production costs and economies of scale.

    1. R&D cost - The cost to design and manufacture a new mid-high end group is high, like car maker building a new car platform. Not many companies are at a big enough scale especially in the domestic market to invest big amounts of money in this. Bezzera did with their propriety group and while it is technically superior to E61 with regards to heatup time and stability there are bugger all in terms of volume is Australia of DUO/Matrix (just my observation, have only seen 1-2 come up second hand in 10+ years), I would say they would be still be behind in terms of recouping their R&D cost.
    2. Consumer demand / Economies of scales - Plenty of people are buying mid level E61 machines, so the bigger companies keep pumping them out and the smaller spin offs keep producing E61 machines. The number of units of the higher level group designs would probably be say 1% or less of the more common E61 group.
    3. Maintenance - Pretty much any coffee business who services machines will be familiar with E61 machines and service is easy to find. They are low complexity as they are mechanical with valves and springs and don't have any electronic parts.
    4. Production cost - The group is a huge hunk of metal but must be pretty cost effective to produce and build a machine around.
    5. Commercial designs - The other aspect is that some of the better group designs are coupled with the normal components of a full commercial machine and they are higher specs to cope with a full commercial load. Good example of this being Linea Mini, this is a single group based off a full commercial machine.

    I recently upgraded to a second hand ECM Syncronika too recently by coincidence and I was looking at dual boiler PID machines preferably with a rotary pump. If budget was no constraint I would have possibly looked at Decent, Linea Mini, GS3, R91, Eagle 1 Prima. With the exception of the Bezzera group most of the single group machines with new more sophisticated group designs are bumping price up to the next bracket 7-10k or higher. Again I think this reflects the premium you you pay for lower volumes machines with higher levels of R&D investment for coffee machine manufacturers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Caffeinator
    commented on 's reply
    Agreed!

    Sometimes it's a case of if it ain't broke, dun fix it. Pop a Scace device on a well-calibrated e-61 and you find that 5kg of brass is not that keen to to change temperature. In dual boiler, the group of an Alex Duetto is hot and stable in 15 minutes which is class-leading as fast as far as I know.

    These is a thing about simplicity, reliability and easily obtainable parts. Any competent tech and plenty of CS'ers can service an e-61 group in 20 minutes with cheap parts. Start playing with fare rarer proprietary bits and the repair bills escalate rapidly.
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